Chewie

although he has really started to show his best over the past 2 seasons the reason for Ronaldo's success at the scum has been Fergie's willingness to blood him in young and give him the time to learn from his mistakes - of which he made plenty - I'm not saying that Babel is of the same quality that Ronaldo was at the same age (they are different types of players) but the guy needs time and freedom to grow into the talent that he has... for a long time Ronaldo was all show and infrequent end product...now he's pure quality who gets more decisions right than wrong...give Babel time...At the minute he's in a front 4 that includes the excellent Torres and Gerrard and the efficious and hard working Kuyt...if he was the main man amongst players of lesser ability or experience we would have cause to be worried - he isn't and we don't... now if he was 23 or 24 or if he is at the same stage at that age its time to get rid...but he isn't so give him a break and give him time to grow... Chewie

I think Rafa has hit the nail on the head with Kuyt's long term contribution to the club...strong member of the squad but not in that group that contains Reina, Masch, Gerrard, Torres to which we could add Agger (when fit)...but we need players like Kuyt - good attitude, always will give his all, can come up with some important goals and very professional in terms of contribution to the club... Chewie

and if that happened don't you think Gerrard would actually be happy to do just that...I do... I reckon Gerrard has always longed to play alongside players of equal ability - he had it in Owen for a few years and now he has it in Torres - you can see how he looks for Torres and seems to have a genuine delight in having him at the club...I reckon if Kaka came then Gerrard would be more than happy to form an attacking midfield three - can you imagine him and Kaka working together and interchanging and all the while Fernando leading the attack... its getting near that time of team formations etc....but surely Reina Alves Agger Skrtl Aurelio? Masch Alonso Gerrard Kaka babel Torres surely that side could really do some damage...that's two, maybe three players - with Arbeloa, Carra, Hyypia, Insua, Lucas, Kuyt, Benayoun as support... that's 18 players and allows for sales of Riise, Carson, Crouch and Kewell (no real money maybe from last two but wages off books...) plus start to bring along these kids Rafa has been buying or maybe even a third signing... anyway...I'm off to dream in Kakaland... Chewie PS Basic point remains - Gerrard will only be unhappy playing on the right of an attacking role if it is to accomodate an inferior player...

who would it take us to sign in world football for Gerrard to play there and be happy there? For instance, if Kaka signed even Gerrard would realise that playing predominantly on the right side of an attacking unit of three behind Torres is to the benefit of everyone... Torres Babel ??? Gerrard with the understanding Torres and Gerrard have along with the goals Gerrard gives us added to a genuine goal threat from a creative link player - now that would be formidable!!! Not that I'm saying he's the answer but by all accounts Barca would be willing to do business for Ronaldinho at around 10 - 12 million...(that spanish correspondent on Talksport seemed to think as much...though apparently its cos they think his best days are behind him...?) anyway - I reckon a world class player to compliment Gerrard in playing off Torres would be amazing and would do no end of good for the development of Babel... anyone else other than Kaka...? Chewie

the newnow site has gone mad with Echo reports on our glorious night in Istanbul.... logged in to catch up on latest reports and thought I had stepped back in time! What a night to return to though!!! Chewie http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Sport/Football/...eague/Liverpool

okay...a number of things here... one...all we are going on for teh past few months has been - and I mean no harm in this - speculation on Internet Forums where it can be like Chinese whispers at times...I still remember when the latest Chinese Whisper was that DIC were planning to sell us on in 7 years time...who really knows how genuine that was or indeed may still be? Trouble is the speculation gets treated as fact and so there was a time when DIC were going to shaft us according to some... the same applies to Hicks. There are numerous things that have actually happened that have caused and should cause us to distrust him. The thing is though that he's the only ticket in town to distrust as he's the owner! DIC have yet to demonstrate how they will manage our club. They may be our saviours...they may be the sort of ethical businessmen with honour that we all hope they will be - but right now no-one knows this for a fact.... two...to say I have compared Hicks to Shanks shows how far you've misread the post...the point was that Shanks had the same distrust and distain for Directors back in his day...it is this that should help us take of our rose-tinted glasses of how there was once a time in our glorious past when all Directors cared about was spending their own money, giving fans free tickets, reducing the price of club merchandise, improving the overall lot of the hardened fan, paying players whatever it takes and so on... there has always been a struggle between those who see our club as their life and those who see it as their business! And even though I'm no betting man I'd put my bottom dollar on human nature being what it is that if ANY one of us was ever in the position to own or run this club that the waters would become more muddy than they appear on this side of the internet keyboard....it has been said that the most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution... three...again you misquote me...you say I have called Hicks a buffoon. What I actually said was even when it seemed like he acted like a buffoon he may have known exactly what he was doing in causing the sort of instability through the club that makes Venture Capitalist companies, namely DIC, sit up and take notice! How are we to know that he wasn't manouevuring? We don't...but it suits us to see the scenario in black and white...Hicks bad - DIC good...Hicks a liar - DIC noble and honourable... I know all businessmen don't work this way. I have the utmost respect for those who try and maintain a moral ethic in their business conduct - but in football speak what has Hicks done here... - the Klinsman thing - its like a manager speaking to a player about possibly coming to the club when he really shouldn't have (of course no-one does that...least of all those steeped in the Liverpool Way) - continually saying he's not for selling in public but having a chat with a buyer anyway... if every player has his price isn't that what always happens... - posturing for add ons and future benefits...why would any club ever negotiate the sale of a player and add a selling on clause eh I don't agree with a lot of what has gone on this past while...I think I know enough about it to form an opinion but I don't know enough about any of it to state much by way of fact....though I appreciate others might be different. What gets me though is the vitriolic nature of the accusations against someone who we welcomed with open arms even though it was clear from day one that he hadn't a clue about our club and was here to make money out of brand Liverpool... and if you don't like any of this - and I don't - then perhaps like me you're just becoming increasingly more perplexed and distainful of the whole state our game has reached (acknowledging as I have sought to do that it was never perfect...) Hicks is part of a wider machine out there that's increasingly just plain ugly...but if being a cold-hard nosed business negotiator and businessman is what it takes to succeed then he's certainely accumulating quite a CV... Chewie

I'll apologise in advance if I misunderstood you. I can see that you may have been simply stating a fact without casting any opinion on the 'moral integrity' of the man...its just that most posts about Hicks are an attack on some sort of moral high ground that he's supposed to occupy and I just don't read it that way... truth is the stubborn old so and so seems like he won't be dictated to by anyone and I can think of a few men like that - Shankly, Ferguson, Rafa - who seem to have lived by the sword and conquered with it... anyway - you may have been stating a fact so that we shouldn't worry about his denials at this stage...it just read differently. If DIC come in and Hicks still gets his hands on future profits and building rights I reckon the man has played an absolute blinder and would like to see that sort of acumen retained, not vilified... Chewie

Throughout this whole debacle it would seem that we've forgotten that Hicks is first and foremost a business man...I have no reason to believe that DIC would have handled themselves any differently than Hicks has over the past few months...even those comments of Hicks that seemed the words of a buffoon in terms of Klinsman etc - who's to say they weren't to cause such uncertainty as to flush out possible buyers for a club which is not in his heart but maintain a working relationship and connection to TV and Building Rights which seem clearly to be in his pocket... For most of the pages on these two threads its almost as if we have believed that Hicks was brought up on the Kop and should literally give it away for the good of the club, for the Liverpool Way...I seem to remember the great Shankly, who there are now sons of to honour the 'ethos' of our club, also had little time or trust for directors or their contribution to the 'spirit of the game'... truth is that we are now even more in a world in which it really doesn't matter which international conglomerate or Investment Capital firm owns us - they will be business men first and foremost and hopefully the best we can hope for is that good business sense off the pitch will understand the need for success on it... for what its worth the cold hard-nosed way in which Hicks has fought his corner these past few months has been sadly lacking in the running of our club for some time. Our best hope is that DIC will be equally as astute (and there's no reason to suggest they won't be) as well as having a genuine long term interest in the club and its growth and the financial means to back this. So Hicks is trying to buy low and sell high...sounds exactly like the transfer policy we couldn't adopt under the previous ownership and how we lamented the waste... Chewie

pure speculation this but I can't help but wonder if these two have a grudging respect for one another... both seem stubborn to a fault and convinced they're right both don't seem to really care that much about what others think of them both seem fairly single minded... both will stand or fall by their convictions and even if Hicks' convictions are financial the net result is (as Utd have proven) success on the pitch equals success off it.... the fortunes of our club may hinge on the single-minded drive of these two men...and whatever we think of Hicks if he's determined to see this out then we may hope his convictions are well founded... anyway...pure speculation but neither man seems to be going anywhere soon and both seem canny enough to realise that better the devil you know in terms of their professional relationship... Chewie

what about a swap deal for Villa involving... Riise Sissoko Kuyt Voronin Diao (we're bound to be still paying that idiot...) Gilette (the best a team can get and all that...) Hicks... plus we give him £10 mil to sweeten the deal...? Sounds good to me... Chewie

aye it was me questioning the wisdom of buying a centre half but in the context of stating that we need to reinforce our dire lack of creativity up front as being a higher priority...obviously now that Agger is out this signing looks much better but then again I was making my comments without the benefit of foresight or the wisdom of hindsight... in any event consider how different my post would be viewed if the title of this thread didn't declare Agger injured but Torres injured... all things considered though I did post elsewhere about how right now we need real direction and leadership from the top...given what happened today I reckon we've got bigger concerns on our hands than particular preferences and whims of transfer opinion... been a bad day in the history of our club. I can never remember the ownership of our club declaring in public that they have had talks with other parties about possibly replacing our manager. Quite frankly, if I was Rafa I'm not sure I would wait until I was pushed...but then again, if he stays thru this then we've got one heck of a stubborn little matador of a spaniard at the helm! If he genuinely faces down this battle it might be his greatest vistory ever... Chewie

here's my real fear... we have been bought by two men from a culture in which the branding of a sport is more important than the domination of that sport by any one particular team - the drafting systems take care of that. There are periods of dominance but they are usually shorter and when players retire and the draft improvements in the weaker teams kick in there is a changing of the guard. But this doesn't actually matter as everyone still gets paid...what matters more is NBA, NHL etc and if you're in that loop there's no need to worry about actually winning.... for this read being at the top end of the premier league and a regular qualifier for the Champions league...you don't actually need to win these for the rewards financially to be great, especially if you have a loyal fan base that you can exploit because they will follow the club even if they were playing in the conference...its big stadium, big branding, big franchises exploiting the collective success of the premier and champions league that really matters. All you have to do is be along for the ride and roll in the reflective glory of other team's success. Without a draft system though you're relying on three things.... 1. being big enough so that you can't be kept out out of the loop (we fit this mould) 2. having a decent manager to make us competitive (we have this) and periodically threatening success (cup runs, champs league qualification...) 3. having enough star names to keep the profile (we have this) after that you've got to ask yoruself the hard question....why break the bank to finish first when finishing fourth gives you all of the above? that's my fear... Chewie

here's the anaylsis from me... Positives in Rafa's favour... 1. 4 cup finals in three years with 2 major trophies... 2. The signings of Reina, Alonso, Garcia (gone), Torres, Babel, Mascherano, Arbeloa, Agger 3. The fact that he knows we are 5 £15 million plus players away from truly challenging (he said as much after the Champs league final and he said so recently...look at the team United played with tonight...and forget about the Arsenal comparison. Wneger inherited a team of experience who had won the league and who had the best back 5 in England. He could build on that) 4. The fact that our squad is genuinely much better than 3 years ago when he arrived. Generally when he has spent 'big' he has spent well. We all thought Kuyt was the mutts nutts when he came...this will be mentioned in the negatives below! So we have had success and Rafa is aware of our shortcomings...but... Negatives against Rafa... 1. His track record with Valencia suggested he should be the perfect man to take on the bigger spending clubs and win. This is patently not happening. In spain he won without spending like Barca and Madrid...he does not seem to be able to replicate this here...I think it may be down to his style of management...see below... 2. Torres apart (and perhaps not including Morientes who we all thought was going to be world class...) he seems to have been unable to purchase any sort of improvement in attacking players. Owen, Ciise, Baros, Mellor have been replaced with Crouch, Kuyt, Bellamy and Voronin - absolutely no improvement there... 3. He has had to build a squad and so has not always been able to sign the players he wants...but perhaps less quantity more quality would have been better... 4. Is he a man-manager or tactician. I know Elisha has commented in the past that he is useless from a man management perspective. Is there a lack of man management that has failed to get the best out of players who need to play above themselves in order to compete? 5. Do the owners want to back him? This is key. Remember how Rafa would be eating at the top table? Is there support there but its not forthcoming because of the man at the helm? If there's genuinely 50 million out there to spend then I want to see him backed or sacked. Given the standard of quality when he has actually spent more then 6-8 million and the silverware success I say he deserves to be backed. If however there is no money to be spent and we need to get the best out of what we've got then I'm not so sure he's the man... like one poster mentioned above, I wouldn't call for him to go but if it was announced I wouldn't be surprised. I remember with Ged it was sad to see him go but it was also a relief. I don't want to see Rafa going as a relief as that'd mean things are worse than now... Thing is - you can make arguments for and against...not sure you could do that with Fergie or Wenger and Grant ain't had the time yet.... Its complicated but right now we need strong leadership and that means more than Rafa. We need our owners to end the uncertainty by either allowing the guy to truly dine at the top table or get someone else in...

I think one of the things we can lose sight of in the forum is the ability to question some things without it turning into an overblown 'Rafa out'...'Sack Parry' fiasco... Its simply a matter of a fan looking at where we have been lacking and that is in the creative department. We are not lacking in the defensive area of our game and with Agger coming back we probably won't be for the remainder of 07/08. Chelsea also were fine at the back but needed reinforcement up front. MFletcher has made some constructive points about why that might be the case and how Chelsea really do operate on a different level from the rest of us when it comes to spending power... my point is that we may well be in a dog fight for fourth place which if we fail to achieve will cost us a lot more than the extra 9 million it might cost now to ensure that doesn't happen. Of course that's a gamble but then that's football and the judgement of the manager is critical here. As someone has also pointed out most January's Rafa has got it right so I trust him with buying this guy as a player for our club...I just doubt he will add to what is lacking in our game at the moment and that might prove critical as we enter the second half of the season... look at it this way...forget about cover at the back...what if we lost Torres now for 3 months? Now we ain't gonna buy another Torres but we should have more than what we have in terms of cover and attacking threat... so it ain't Rafa bashing but it is legitimate to discuss these things...unlike the reactions of the first few posters!

I genuinely don't deny the logic of much of what you've posted...but Skrtel's value isn't going to increase much come the summer, and who's to say we are totally capped at 6.5 million, especially if that was the money earmarked for Heinz last summer. What if United go after that guy Huntelaar for 12 million...can we not compete with that even now or why will the funds only become available in the summer... January is a tricky time to buy, there's no doubt about that...but to my mind Chelsea had just added to their strength in winning games for the second half of the season...we've increased our squad and the difference might just be crucial in how both teams fare from here on in...if the extra 9 million is going to be available in the summer then why not now given that a failure to succeed in the second half of the season could have very costly consequences? Chewie

well actually that will depend on your nutritional needs at the time of purchase. If your dehydrated I'ld go with the water...if your in need of short term energy injection I'ld stick with teh banana.... given that defensively neither Chelsea or ourselves are 'dehydrated' but we both need an injection of energy I'ld say at this moment in time its appropriate to question how the money is being directed....

my apologies to all concerned...I was under the mistaken assumption that we are in a competitive league with Chelsea and that a comparison of transfer policies during a transfer window was of relevance to a Liverpool football forum, not to mention the clear oversight on my part in not realising that it doesn't matter if neither team is in dire need of improving their defence but both could do with investing in quality up front. In addition I promise to always remember that the money we earmark for a defender is exactly the level of money needed to purchase a world class striker/winger rather than appreciating this fact but wondering if that same money could be better invested as part of teh overall payment for said striker.... next time the transfer window opens and its time for questioning how we are utilising our funds, how our main rivals are utilising theirs and whether or not we are adding players to our team who will make a genuine difference to a perceived weakness I'll be sure to register my interest on the financial times forums... Chewie

the point though is not about Anelka directly though it refers to him...its about teh difference in approach that's willing to buy a player who will improve the attacking threat of the side at a stage of teh season whena fresh injection of creativity may make a huge difference against the relatively minor potential improvement we might make given that its unlikely we'll improve significantly on what we have... so its not necessarily about the personalities..its about the respective ambitions and priorities of both clubs....

hey...the spending ain't finished and who knows we may just add to our spending this transfer window..but who got the better deal today - us or Chelsea? It's just a question, not an accusation or hidden jab. However, wth Agger on the way back and their being relatively little difference between our defensive record and chelsea's and given that our need for a quality striker is almost as pressing as theirs (in fact more pressing perhaps even with Drogba being at the ANC)...which signing will offer more in the second half of this season? Which signing will push a team forward offering a different dimension that can possibly win games? Of course the fees are different but in a sense that reflects the difference each player can make in their own position... I am hoping Scrotal is signing on the money earmarked for Heinze, that Masch will sign on the proceeds of Sissoko, but that we can still look to strengthen in the one area we need it most - creativity and potent attacking quality... I think given our respective needs Chelsea have bought better for the second half of the season...though who's to say spending has finished for either parties. If it has however I can't help but think that these signings represent something of a difference in attitude towards the rest of the campaign....? just wondering (this ain't a vehicle to start rafa bashing again...please!) Chewie

funny...couldn't help but think the same about our lack of concern over the loss of the 'under-rated' Riise ;) Chewie

was it out of sheer affection and loyalty given that Liverpool fans have supposedly been loyal and patient with their managers...was it sheer defiance in watching a little guy taking on the new owners who are increasingly under the spotlight of distrust...or was it an entrenched belief that come what may Rafa is the best man to take Liverpool forward... I've sat and read most posts on this forum and I've even posted my own concerns about how points wise Rafa has been closer to the managers of teams like Everton, Tottenham and now even Man City than those of United, Arsenal or Chelsea and I've reached the point where above all else what I want is certainty! If the new bosses genuinely do not want Rafa to be at the helm and if the show of support for him was a romantic one and not based on hard-headed opinion about wanting Rafa to stay then let's make the change now and throw all the support behind whoever comes in - vocally and financially... If however Rafa is to stay then equally I want to see him backed to the hilt now to make a serious step forward. This for me is the preferred option (but only after my knee has stopped jerking this past 24 hours) and here's why... 1. Under Rafa we have a squad that is of real value in terms of £s - that is a tribute to what he has done compared to the inherited squad that he had to give away...this tells me that even though we have doubted some of his buys that on teh whole we are better off in terms of average quality... 2. He has spent a heck of a lot of money and perhaps in hindsight he might have spent the same money on half the players but on better ones and tried to blend these in with whatever he could in terms of reserves and inherited players... nonetheless he has been purchasing strikers (Torres apart) for half the price that United have been purchasing defensive midfielders. At our peak we never shirked from flexing the financial muscle to replace quality with even better quality (Dalglish for Keegan, the summer of 87...) 3. The quality players at our disposal are genuine class...reina, gerrard, carra, agger, alonso, mascherano, torres and possibly Babel. There are lesser lights who add depth and there are players that we could sell and who all would sell at a decent value... It's time to sift off the quality 2nd tier players who have brought us so far and replace them with fewer 1st tier quality replacements. Having built the base already mentioned Rafa needs to be given the chance to finish the job and then stand or fall on the completed project... when you see the quality of Masch and Torres you see why figures of 17 and 20 million are mentioned... It's time to back him or sack him. To keep him in place but not allow him to actually finish the task is a recipe for disillusionment and disaffection... oh...and Rafa, please show your quality now by keeping the mouth shut and getting a decent no.2 in Chewie

agree with this...was listening to some stuff on the radio about how Rafa has spent more than Fergie since he's been here (don't worry about the net figure - basic point stands...Rafa has spent more £s than Fergie in the same period to bring in the players he feels he needed). The point though is this - Rafa needed to spend more money on a greater number of players than Fergis had to. Fergie spent less money on less players with greater quality. Rafa has had to spend more money on more players with less quality... If its a choice between a smaller squad with greater quality or a larger squad with lesser first team quality then I'm all for the former... the point though is this...when Rafa inherited the base on which to build was this - Gerrard and Carra... now the base on which to build is Reina, Agger, Carra, Gerrard, Masch, Alonso, Babel, Torres... there's a core of lesser lights that add to what we have ...Lucas, Arbeleo, Benayoun, Finnan, Aurelio everyone else is up for grabs to be replaced by fewer players but with genuine quality...the lack of strength in depth can be mitigated against by doing a Wenger and starting to play all these foreign kids we've been bringing in in the two cups... Crouch, Kuyt, Voronin - replace with one truly great forward Sissoko, Pennant, Kewell - replace with one really gifted midfielder Riise, Hyypia - time's up for a genuine classy defender... keep the core quality and let our reserves and youth team players believe they have a chance of pushing for something... what's the point of playing in our reservces if you look at the first team squad and see over 30 professional players... I hate to say this but Fergie has known for a long time that the combination of hunger and quality is the key... Chewie

Most of the time on here we compare Rafa to Fergie or to Wenger or to Mourinho...but is that because we have bought int the media hype over the so called big four... we have routinely finished closer to teams managed by the likes of Moyes, Jol, Redknapp and Hughes than of those managed by those that have tasted premiership glory... now we are being surpassed by a man derided by the English Press for being swedish...in his first year in charge not to mention the unpredictable but undeniably impressive exploits of Moyes (on a vastly inferior budget and club profile) not to mention the football now being played by Villa under O'Neill... in fact it will be interesting to see if we finish closer to the combined efforts of Jol and Ramos this season than to the lower of the two finishes between Wenger or Fergie... I hate to say but it's teh classic statement: the league table doesn't lie and the truth that's being told is that we are closer to consistent mediocrity than we think... Chewie