Chewie

what about the supposed approach or notification to the premier league re the 10 days noitice...should we expect something to be done soon...right now they're saying yayah will buy by saturday!

and then like that...he was gone

kinda like in the film Thirteen Days...if we choose to ignore one communication from a communist state then the cubans won't blow us into smithereens and then we just keep crossing our fingers saying please let the good news be true....please let the good news be true...please let the good news be true... that''ll do for me

...is this part of the theory that George's PR team will work overtime to discredit Huang... ...have we really be put into a spin by a guy who sounds as tho he may need Rodney and Uncle Albert to keep dick for him and his dodgy deals... ...what about yayha kirdi...is he just a mythical gimp with a fake limp playing us all for fools... ...tune in after another 50 pages (come back around 4:23pm today) for more heart-wrenching stomach churning agony as all the kitd amongst us hang on every itk breath that tells us sweet fa... this is making 9/9/99 look like a rafafact...please make it stop! chew....still can't say it...not until the jump to light speed out of this mess meanwhile, on planet earth...some US judge told the creditors of a guy who owns 50% of our club that they can go after his assets...nothing to worry about then...

hey...a true wookie feels your pain...but right now it feels it feels as if we're just about to emerge from the dark side into A New Hope and this wookie's waiting to kick a55 when the red empire strikes back!! Che.....just can't do it yet...

How many of you are like me simply refreshing and looking up this page almost every other minute in part believing that in the simple act of doing so the club will be sold... and all without a single iota of insider knowledge or information!!! To base so much hope on so little information surrounded by so many words

That's it - new manager, new owners...and a return to the Liverpool of old...can't even get the ball off us!

Can I be first to get me coat and on the way order a #19...

reckon a lot of people forget how many people thought carra was a liability and a 'plank' when he first started out. Insua looked good when first being blended in but suffered badly under the strain of what was a terrible last season for everyone. With guys like him and Lucas I see no benefit whatsoever in getting rid now after we've allowed them time to learn by making their mistakes. Lucas in particular has improved every season and if he continues on that trajectory he could turn into as reliable a player as carra. New management new season new opportunity for players that are still relatively new... Big seasons ahead for Insua Lucas babel

new chairman, new manager, new post ending, new owners... I'm trying to do me bit Chewie

You see, I would like to believe this too but I think this is us being guilty of thinking...if I, as a massive Liverpool fan who would play for nothing, was Torres..this is what I would do. We think the relationship is between us and Torres but to be honest - it isn't. He receives our appreciation and adulation but his day to day working life is with the club. We have no idea how he feels he has been managed during his time here. We have no idea if he has been lied to. We have no idea if he's actually a rotten apple in the whole cart and his off-field demeanour and interviews are very carefully considered and managed (tho I'd genuinely think this is not likely with Nando...) Bottom line is if we played for Liverpool we'd say we're doing it for the love and that we'd take whatever terms the club offered...but in reality I don't think that would happen. If you or I were playing for Liverpool and we had doubts about how we were being treated - either financially or in football terms - or if we looked around the dressing room and saw players getting paid more than us simply because they were being professional about it and we were in it for the love and so on - I think we would be doing what Nando is doing right now. He's let the club know he's unhappy at broken promises. He's let them know he's not going to be taken for a fool. That perhaps he was once told he could achieve all his ambitions here because the club was ambitious but perhaps now is being told we can't afford to be ambitious. He's spoken to the money men. He's spoken to the new manager to say his beef is not with him but at this moment in time he's still a Liverpool player and is looking forward to next season...and then he's taken a break. Let the club prove their own integrity before putting emotional pressure on him to either be a legend or a Judas... I see no reason why Nando should sell himself or his aspirations short by committing to something he doesn't believe in simply to settle all our nerves. Nor do I think he should do it if by making his opinions clear it gives the club the kick up the backside it needs... what if the Yanks and Purslow were allowed to hide behind Torres saying he's happy? That was one of the things that has impressed me about Roy. He didn't try and pretend that signing Joe Cole makes all our problems go away. Personally I expect Torres to be here another season unless he does what Stevie did in 05 and what Masch has done now - specifically asks to be allowed to leave (once he does this he will not turn like SG did). I'm prepared to take what Roy has said at face value and I also think that if City genuinely thought they could get him they would know by now and wouldn't be trying to rustle up a story in the press. As for Nando's silence. So far his actions have spoken loud and clear and imho have been reasonable and consistent with who he is professionally and were we are at as a club

aye but not the Fowler we grew to idolise... anyway - back to the first match up...why does side B need an extra defender in Heskey?

surely we can only agree with this up to a point. We know that the root of our probs are the yanks. That is obvious. But in recnt seasons good management has seen united remain competitive on the pitch even when not so off it...losing ronaldo in the process. Good team / squad management saw guus hiddinck and then ancelotti revive a team without any new players. IF we lose any players the new man is in trouble... That could well happen... But good team and man management should help the team that got 86 points two years ago... With the loss of alonso being the main variable - to actually compete. We are a mess but we should not be defeatist in who becomes our manager... It is too grand a privilege to be manager of Liverpool football club for us to dismiss the appointment as being irrelevant... Without of course taking our eyes off the big picture

I think its clear that in our current state only one man fits the bill... Domenech...C'est tu!!

good call...and everytime he does he gets lauded for doing so. hailed as a great and the future captain of the club. reinforces my point though about how we're hopelessly confused about what we think we need...when someone speaks up they're hailed as understanding the club. When they don't they're protecting our image and integrity. We are a shambles on and off the pitch with no coherent stratgey from the supporters and no coherent vision running the club (see all the comments on Dalglish). How can he be interviewing for the job he wants knowing that the fans will support him?! Has me totally confused and I can only think that things are about to get better and we simply need Kenny to hold things for a while or that things are even worse than we thought and Kenny knows that if he doesn't get in there then there is no-one to protect the interests of the soul of the club...

maybe I'll start another thread then about something other than... - the culture of silence at the club amongst Directors, ex-manager and players about our current state of ownership - the merits of making public our very private concerns and would that be a help or a hindrance to the cause - the fact that it is the fans who are the only voice in all of this and those they idolise or mock stay quiet (Rafa, players, Coco and up until recently Moores...) - the destabilising impact of Kenny putting himself forward for an appointment that he is overseeing... - the impact on any future manager of being perceived by the fans as being a puppet and not a legend like Kenny - the potential for Kenny to no longer have a role at the club because his position could be potentially untenable yet I think these are the sorts of issues that face us...thx to those who feel able to articulate genuine reasons why Rafa should not speak up (could not is actually his choice as anyone can reject a confentiality clause - they just wouldn't get paid...), and anyone else who has an opinion on the sort of public profile we need from our most high profile individuals (players and management) or on how Kenny's intervention is very high risks...that'd be great...

Not being one to irrationally defend a position just because I made it I take on board some of the comments made. In fact I alluded to them by referring to the likely 'keep your mouth shut' clause and also it would not work very well for him professionally if other owners saw him mouthing off at his previous club. Other points still stand though which I shall come back to. One grey area though is whether or not speaking out harms us or helps us. It could be harmful if all of a sudden it is crystal clear that the club is in a mess and obviously any other prospective managers would not come anyweher near is (not that they're knocking down the door). It could also harm any potential sale if we are expressly stated to be a financial shambles, forcing player sales with the threat of administration (new owners would just wait for the knock down price...) These things are practically points of record anyway however and would the voice of someone so internationally respected as Rafa lend weight and pressure for this all to be brought to an end. The pride in Rafa not dragging us through the mud is interesting as it's indicative of how, right now, we are not anywhere near being clear as to how far we are willing to go to rid the club of its parasites. Boycotting games, burning flags, pressurising banks - these are not things that can be done without attracting public profile which ironically is the fuel this fire needs if its to burn the house down and get rid of the owners. Would Rafa saying something help or hinder this? At the end of the day severance agreements with confidentiality clauses work both ways. Confideniality costs, which means the person keeping quiet prefers taking the money to speaking out. I don't blame Rafa for taking the money...but... ...I stand over the intimations that in the past few years Rafa has shown himself to be a very shrewd operator in using the in-fighting on the board to strengthen his position at the club - most notably at times when on the pitch things were on-ice. Even up until recently it was Rafa's agent speaking out about the attractiveness of Juve...weeks before Rafa declares himself very sad to be leaving the club. When that new contract was negotiated it was a game of bluff between Rafa and the owners who couldn't sack him cos they were not speaking to one another, and who couldn't finance new signings so having very astutely gotten the fans right on his side the board backed the manager. So I am not beyond thinking that Rafa has played his way out of the club very well, and that same man who felt able to pass comment on the poor furniture purchases of the Valencia board has yet to speak a word about the restrictions placed on him at Liverpool. I also stand over the later comments in the original post which are that we are now in a shambolic state. As soon as Kenny threw his hat into the ring it became impossible for the club to appoint anyone else who would not be perceived as being a puppet of the owners. I really hope that Kenny knows what he's doing because if a new man comes in and takes the job he wanted then he has to go. If I was a new manager I would demand it. You can't work with the spectre of a living legend who wanted your job sitting in the Directors box taking the plaudits from the fans as soon as things start going awry. As for the quality of this or any other thread...well, I reckon the easier thing would be to close the forum down, appoint (or allow themselves to self-appoint) a few wise gurus who can enlighten us all so that we can all share the same opinion...sorry, I mean information as opinions (one has to presume) will no longer be necessary.... The rest of the idiots can do online what fans in pubs, homes, buses, trains, radio stations and so on have been doing for the last 100 years plus.... talking about the game we love from the perspective of being privy to 0.01% of the information needed to actually state something that is a fact....so the next time someone tries to shout me, or anyone else for that matter, down I'll thank them for their opinion, acknowledging that their right to have it...which allows me to do the same...

there's the title I've yet to read on any of the headline news over the past few weeks and it's likely I'm not going to read it either... why's that then? why is it that the only man holding the club together refused to stand up on the side of the long-wearied and beleagured supporters against those who are tearing it, and who tore him, apart...? I've said it elsewhere - I for one am given to thinking that Rafa has more than got what he wanted out of this move professionally, even if it is a change of life for himself and his family. £6 million in the bank out of a contract that was succesfully negotiated at a time when G&H were at total odds and against the backdrop of whisperings of yet another Italian team interested in luring Rafa to Serie A (always around December time when the league looked out of sight or the Champs league was reaching a mke or break moment), a new job that was virtually guaranteed...and all with a promise to say nothing. If Rafa had walked he would not have got a penny. If he'd been sacked he could have claimed the full whack and the Rafa-rant could have aired itself once again...but by mutual consent means keeping the mouth quiet... In all of this I'm not saying that I actually blame the guy. He's been shrewd and professional many times in his tenure. There's no fault in that and he knows that one way to make other owners fearful is have a guy who won't keep his mouth shut in slamming his bosses.... ...but whilst we're all worked up on how we can cope without the only man who truly understood us he is currently applying his understanding of a confidentiality clause with 6 million and an international reputation firmly in check. So I don't blame him but I stop short of thinking that somehow Rafa is going to be the embodiment of the 12th man, the one who will believe in the club through the wind and the rain, the one who will truly get burned with things go awry. It's the fans left with the kick in the teeth at every level of the debacle these past few years. Betrayed by lying owners and sucked in to providing unequivocal support to a manager who, lets face it, has walked without so much as a whimper. As for where we go next - well then it gets even worse. We walk straight into the pitiful and laughable position of having one of our recruitment panel seeking to recruit himself - complicating enormously the appointment process and rendering it virtually impossible for himself to stay in position if he doesn't get the job as well as leaving whoever does get it as being considered inferior to a legend and a yes man to the vultures running our club. No manager worth his salt would touch this appointment. Kenny is playing high risks with the future of this club and I hope, not for his sake or for the sake of any player for that matter, that for OUR sake his high risk strategy is because he knows that if he loses we ALL lose. It is not his appointment or any other appointment that I fear the most in all of this. It is that, being privy to the sorts of conversations behind the scenes, Kenny has felt the need to intervene at all. Somewhere deep within me lies the hope that actually all with the club at their heart knows more than we do and that our patience is being tested because they know that better days lie ahead. That new owners are in the pipeline, that they and we needed a new man at the helm, that Kenny can stabilise things for a few months to see us through... or that a mjor breakthrough will happen in the next few weeks and appointing Roy now would be premature...(if they really wanted him he would be here by now. Without any arrogance the facts are that he manages Fulham. Its a no brainer in terms of worldwide prestige if not current cirumstances...) Rafa is gone and we are none the wiser...I want to thank the man for the memories, for the donation to the HJG, but I see that he seems to have moved on without too many difficulties. Its a pity we can't seem to do the same, Chewie

I don't post that often but on a number of occasions in this past year I have posted along the general lines of 'I fear it might be time for Rafa to go, but I might fear even more what will happen to us if he leaves'. There were lots of footballing reasons for thinking perhaps Rafa had just ran out of steam, was not going to get the resources to freshen things up and so perhaps needed to move on (some of those reasons go back over the whole of his time here however). In a nutshell I think it had got to the stage where... - despite his supposed brilliant tactical nous we have been labouring with 4-2-3-1 and everyone has found us out... - we have built a team around this system, failing - criminally - to develop the back-up and competition for Nando. This has been Rafa's biggest failing. We have watched Owen, Baros, FSP, Diouff, Mellor, Crouch, Bellamy, Keane all go, or even come and go, during this tenure. In most other parts of the team we have traded up - in this area we have failed to do so...even before the credit crunch etc...and Rafa does not seme to have been able to work with any of these players - some of the public man management of players was a little bizaare - Crouch for instance was supported 100% when he arrived and couldn't score and when he improved he was benched. Keane failed as a Liverpool player of that there is no doubt but again there was a moment when he looked like kicking on, scored a couple of goals, and then didn't start a game in which Liverpool filled their boots... - Losing Xabi - last summer was never ever the time to sell - the falling pound, the 50% tax for players in the UK, the world cup looming that would have ensured he remained totally committed...we should have demanded one more season in the same way that Henry and Ronaldo and even Fabregas (last year) were not allowed to leave when they wanted to... - Aquilani - not saying he won't work out but we needed someone to kick on immediately from pre-season...by the time he started we were finished - general play - in the 6 seasons under Rafa we had a glorious period of about 4 months in 08/09 when we looked a proper footballing team. For 5 1/2 years we waited for a glimpse of the Valencia team that destroyed us at Anfield - we rarely, if ever, saw it come to fruition - the last £57 million spent has not been spent wisely - Keane, Aquilani, Johnston (the first failed but was never supported, the second might prove to be the right player at the wrong time, and the third was simply an overspend for not that much of an improvement on the succession of Finnan and Arbeloa). This led me to wince a little when Rafa suggested that he needed to be able to spend £20mil each on 3-4 new players... - our collapse from one season to the next despite competing with United, Chelsea and Arsenal who had all weakened - or failed to improve - over the same period in terms of player personnel But i want to thank Rafa for everything that he has achieved for for us and I would have respected a decision to stick with him at this time also...however, there is another angle to this that has not escaped my thinking... why do we believe this is all the club's doing. One of the features of Rafa's tenure was some very astutue moves behind the scenes to secure his position and favour with the fans. Any time that he was in trouble for poor results we seemed to have some sort of link with another club emerging...all seemingly linked to how unstable his working environment was that would take the heat off the team, off the manager and place it firmly on the owners (please do not interpret this in any way as a failure to recognise the poor working environment nor as a defence of the owners)...but all of a sudden without any rationale for doing so based on what was in front of them on the picth Rafa's status with the fans was restored to being unshakeable and he stayed...not only did he stay but I have no doubts whatsoever that he astutely used and manouevured the weak position of two owners in-fighting to secure the 5 year contract with the £16 mil buyout clause not that long ago. Appointing Rafa to such a contract once again appeased the fans as this was easier to do than spend money on players and in essence entrusting the oversight of the existing players to the devil they knew. This is now the perilous situation we are in and which, despite my misgivings over Rafa, made me fear if he were to leave. Yet two more things flow from this. I remember Ballague saying that Rafa's style of management requires a high turnover of players. Players need to come in and be happy to play Rafa's way but after a while the really good players get a little fed up with the automon style...a high turnover keeps things fresh through new blood rather than through man management. I don't know much about this but from the outside looking in I think this could be a fair assessment. It is clear we are not going to be able to have such a turnover and so possibly Rafa is nto the man for this next moment in time... The second thing if this...what if Rafa has wanted to leave. I know there will be many who will say that they don't blame him. But while we're all 'shocked' at the loss of a good manager, what if £6million in the bank account and a clear idea that he was to be appointed manager at Inter Milan made this as much Rafa's move as ours. His transition to Italy seems all too seamless to me not to think that these things have been talked about for possibly quite some time. We've also heard little to nothing from Rafa about how badly he was treated, how he was forced out and so on. The fans want him to defend them against G+H but what if that doesn't follow.... What if we're all being played a little - and have been for quite some time - by all of this? As for Rafa's successor - if Hodgson isn't here in the next 48 hours I very much doubt it will be him. If he really is the man wanted then getting him should not be problematic if we are supposedly still one of the worlds' top teams and he is coming from, without being derogatory, Fulham. If he is not here within 48 hours then he is not the guy we want and if I were him I would get on with making my plans for Fulham without being made to live at the beck and call of Liverpool after they have exhausted all other options. Anyway, Rafa's gone and it is sad to think that the high hopes we all once had are now dashed...but I for one am not being lulled into thinking that Rafa is too upset about how everything has played out....

I know there's a whole lot of other discussion about Rafa and the owners and so on in the other Rafa to Juve thread... I also know there's a wide range of opinions about on and off the pitch stuff and I too have my own opinions...personally I've had huge misgivings about some of the things on the pitch that off-the-pitch stuff has nothing to do with, huge concerns about some of the things on the pitch directly affected by the off-field stuff, and massive concerns about the overall leadership of the club...but if we can all set aside our biases about the present can we at least say thanks to a man who gave (whether successful or otherwise) us so much over 6 years...let me start the ball rolling... ...thanks Rafa for that 2-1 victory over Juve, playing a blinder by starting Le Tallec and making a believer out of me again...

Course I don't have to thanks Chewie

we prefer not to talk about the referee...you can see the game and do the anaylsis it is always difiicult with 10 men but we showed ca-rachter and qwa-lity we have to focus on next game in premier league and then try to make the semi-final... it was Rafa....!

Lucas once again stepped up for the post match interview but boy has that lad been groomed...that was Rafa speaking after the match! One day that boy will manage Brazil in a world cup final... Chewie

I hope we make it... P GD Pts 14 Wigan 28 -26 28 15 West Ham 28 -9 27 16 Sunderland 27 -12 27 17 Wolves 28 -25 24 18 Hull 28 -33 24 19 Burnley 28 -31 23 20 Portsmouth 27 -22 19

I think it's finished.... very hard to admit to this but I think his time is up, and even with that I fear the future without him as I'm not sure who will come in with the yanks at the helm, so before I get to why I think it is up (and as a possible counter to my own thoughts...) let me thank Rafa for... 1. Two trophies in an amazing blur of optimism in his first couple of years, 2. Repeatedly tonking the scum... 3. Fernando Torres & Xabi Alonso (tho I blame him for the latter as well), Pepe Reina - 3 absolute stars 4. staying tough in the middle of a very difficult working environment 5. pushing the scum for the title last season 6. Re-enhancing our European pedigree... thank you Rafa, but here's the downside and why i believe the Rafalution has gone stale, possibly beyond repair... 1. Tactics - when Rafa arrived we started playing this 4-2-3-1 formation. It was new, it was fresh, it was solid and creative. It's now 5 years old, others have worked it out and we don't seem to have a plan B. Instead, we have built a team around the '1' at the spearhead, flogging a racehorse like a carthorse and being unable to vary our options. Supposedly we cannot buy someone simply to be Torres understudy, but that seems to presume we will only ever play one way....it looks very tired, and very flat... 2. Man Management - 3 examples of handling players that I don't understand. Crouch was backed to the hilt when he couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo, and when he started scoring was mainly benched in his last season. Keane did not start well and looked out of place, but just when he found some form he was benched. This I don't understand. We buy Aquilanim, are afraid to play him in a losing team, he plays for 3-4 games when we get results, starts to pick up the pace a little and then gets benched in a game like last night. This I don't understand... 3. Squad development - now in certain areas here I could make an argument for and against, but there are a couple of glaring facts that can't be ignored...but going through the team I would say GK - we have developed and thankfully have one of the best in the world RB - not sure that Johnson is really a progression on Finnan or Arbeloa and not at that price LB - not sure that Insua or Aurelio are really an improvement on Riise CB - I think moderate improvement has been made tho carra is ageing and we miss Sami badly CM - Up to last year we were abolsutely boss...but losing Alonso and developing Gerrard to the point where he has forgotten how to play there means we now look very light.... LM - Reira gives same balance and inconsistency with form and injuries that Kewell did RM - this position for the last 10 years has been filled by failed forwards - Heskey, Diouf, Kuyt etc AM - Gerrard's development has been great, Benni is good.....prob overall improvement FW - Torres an absolute star but the lack of quality back-up/support/alternatives at our club now is pure negligent, especially at a club that seems to have provided half the premier league with their strikers - most if not all of whom would give us something we don't have at the minute....in the last 5 years we have seen the following go, or come and go - Heskey, Owen, Baros, Morientes, Crouch, Bellamy, Keane, FSP, Mellor and I think we have regressed. this has been the major flaw in the plan! 4. Motivation - it has been said by others that Rafa needs a large turnover of players to provide injection and energy into his team. I don't understand what this means but can see the enormous turnover to back up the theory and also the limited scope for such a turnover in the future with financial constraints. I fear we will simply go stale. And no matter how bad the scum are playing and no matter how much I lament his presence, Slur Alex never settles for a bore draw - they will play to win... 5. the liverpool Way etc etc...there is an argument that we don't chop and change managers, that we do things differently and so on. This is myopic, rose-tinted nonsense. The Liverpool way was to win football matches and as a result win trophies. Period. Success came because we didn't spend our time dwelling on the last win, the last cup. There was a haunting flag at one of the Chelsea games thats aid something about making history, not talking about it. I love the fields of Anfield Road, the songs of the past, but the trouble is that we then live in the past. We had Heighway on teh wing, dreams and songs to sing. Well, where are those dreams and songs now...cos if Heighway wasn't producing he'd be out the door. We exist to win football games and football trophies. Before we came along under Shankly the likes of burnley and so on were great teams. No one has a right to permanent success. If we stand still we'll move back and City will overtake us. Period. They have the money and the resouces...oh, but you can't buy history we cry...fair enough, but whilst we're talking about the good old days they and others like them will be living in the good old days. There is a Liverpool Way. It's called being succesful and progressing, not standing still. I fear Rafa's time has come. We look a spent force, a team that damns itself by raising their game on occasion as if to prove that we are a cup team who can mix it with others for just about 90 minutes but not significantly. The mis-handling of Alonso was negligent, the failure to provide support for Torres just blindness, the results self-evident and the team self-destructive. Perhaps the man might yet prove me and others wrong...if he is to be kept on I will happily chew on my every word. I'm not concerned with being right or being vindicated. I'm simply being concerned with whatever it will take to make us tick again. Right now, on balance, that looks like a new man in charge. Chewie