DJS

Sums up exactly how i feel about his mentality.

Dont get me started on that one. It's almost legaslative nowadays that we dont actually & actively 'go for it' until we lose a goal. Frustrating as feck.

I'll meet you in the middle and say maybe not quite 90, but i'm pinning my hat firmly on 85 If we got mid 80s, i'd be happy with that as tangible progress, inspite of the genuine hopes i did actually have that we'd go on to win it. I keep trying to remind myself how absurd it is for a side to go from 4th place to champions in one season.

The evidence does back up your point about doing it over a season. I find it hard to believe, but then when i put my 'football isnt just black and white' hat on, i can see where you're coming from. I also happen to think the way we play has a significant role in it too - the inability (or reluctance?) to move the ball forwards at a quicker tempo, in order to exploit space BEFORE the opposition shift across their 10 men behind the ball. It sounds so simple and of course there's more to it, but the notion of 'pass and move' really needs to be drilled into them, big time.

I'd only say two things to that mate. I generally do agree with you, especially about the fine lines. What i would say though, is that you could arguably say that the attacking/defensive mentality of the side (i mean the balance between the two) plays a part in the fact that we struggle to win so often at home. Secondly, i'd go back to my point i made before about not really being fussed about what other teams do - i just want us to do all we can do, exhaust every possibility available, in our search of 3 points and i'm not wholly convinced that we actually are doing that all the time. If we throw the kitchen sink at teams and dont get the luck, that's football. And it will indeed happen on the odd occasion. But i dont think we throw the kitchen sink (so to speak) as often as we could do, when necessary.

Am i right in thinking that your reply is an accurate answer to both questions i posed? Or is it just me?

Yeah, it's definitely a double edged sword. Having beaten United and done the double over Chelsea, you do however find it frustrating that we couldnt do the so-called 'easy bit'. Of course they're not 'easy' as such, but well within our capabilities. You're right in what you said earlier about expectations set by being top, but i'm not sure we that expecting to mostly beat midtable sides at Anfield is an unrealistic expectation. Forgetting the specific games and points tallies, generally speaking it's a common trait of our side that we struggle to make that crucial difference in games which turns one point into three. Whether it's final ball, a touch of guile or mere finishing...or even a combination of the three, it all adds up to the same problem that cost us last year, has cost us this year and is becoming characteristic of our side. How we go about changing it is debatable, but i'm yet to be convinced that Rafa can/will change it, and i hate to say that.

You're right about it being a weird season, but with respect, why should we care about the failings of others? (eg chelsea and arsenal). As i've said, i dont even care what United do. I just want us to produce the best we can do (or, allowing for the impossible nature of perfection, something as close to this as possible) and i dont think we've really done that this year. Dont get me wrong, i dont think we're far off it, but small margins & all. As Leo said, it's just a bit of tweaking, but i think in order for that to happen successfully, rafa has to adapt slightly too. And i dont think he will.

The 'overturning' of the points difference is obviously skewed as they had two extra games to play. I'm definitely not jumping on that bandwagon and it's of little importance WHEN the points were won, it's obviously the final tally that matters, little else. Sod the '8 point lead becomes a 7 point defecit' argument, i'm binning it along with you.

I would agree with all of that. My main concerns are that without doing the tweaking, i cant see us overcoming the obstacles that prevent us winning the title - and that i'm not convinced that Rafa will do the necessary tweaking. I sincerely hope i'm wrong.

Are we really not good enough to beat the likes of Stoke, Fulham, Hull etc? Or is it more that Rafa hasnt been able to get the best out of the squad at a consistent enough rate?

To be fair dave, he wasnt disputing that, nobody is. The point is that we're adrift mainly because we havent produced results which we're easily capable of producing, when it comes to home games. United have had a superb run but their final points tally isnt going to be anything unprecedented. It's not as if we've produced all we can, but have simply been swept aside by a United side which has reached a previously unheard of level. They're just doing what title winning sides generally do - amass about 90 ish points.

If United were to win all 12 of their remaining games, they'll end the season on 95 points. Realisitcally, i think they'll finish on something like 87-90, give or take a point or two. In the last few years, the champions have usually finished on 87-90 points or so, again give or take 1 or 2 points.. What have they done that's impossible to legislate for? If they were comfortably closing in on a 95+ points tally, then yeah, hands up - i'd say they were simply in a different class and nobody can do anything about it. But the fact is, if we'd won 3 of our 6 home draws in the league, we'd be practically neck and neck with them. And whilst there's been off field nonsense and disruption, nobody can tell me that the conditions/squad with which Rafa has to work with, isnt good enough to win home games against the vast majority of league opponents. It's not even about winning the title for me, it's simply about doing as best as you can and getting the most out of what you have to work with. And i honestly cant argue that drawing half (give or take 2-3%) of our home games in the PL equates to that. I fully concede that sometimes, no matter what you do, you'll have odd home games where you dont get the rub of the green and fail to collect the 3 points. But half the time? That's just not good enough.

He's not a traditional out and out winger, but he'll probably do better out there than most of the other limited options. Robert Pires wasnt an actual 'winger' either, but he was highly effective playing wide. Agree on Ashley Young.

I'd go along with the Ribery suggestion. He's capable of making things happen for us and would definitely add to our badly lacking creativity. Wouldnt have minded Arshavin either, for that matter.

I know loads dont like him, but if we had a chance of getting Mourinho in the summer, i'd take it in a heartbeat. I genuinely think he'd win the title with us. He gets the best out of what he has to work with and in those circumstances, we have a squad capable of winning the title.

Even allowing for the notion that he's missed out on his 1st choice signings, he still has a squad easily capable of winning home games against Hull, Stoke, Fulham, WHU, Everton and City. Without a shadow of a doubt. Sure you're not going to win all the time, the nature of football allows for the odd couple of blips, but six of them? Nah, not having that.

He needs to learn to play with a high tempo and move the ball quickly BEFORE we go a goal behind. There's only so many times you can get out of jail.

Even a team consisting of 6 average players should be putting Stoke, Hull, West Ham, Fulham etc to the sword at home. As for not a lot of money, Dossena, Lucas and Keane = £34m. What a world class return we've seen from that trio.

How do those above factors justify 6 points from Stoke, Hull, West Ham, Everton, Fulham and City at Anfield?

Arguable. Last year too many home draws killed us. This year even more home draws have killed us. Has he learnt?

CLEAR f***ING PENALTY - NOT GIVEN. UNBELIEVABLE THIS.

f***ing Paul Robinson is s****. Straight at him, that one.

Simultaneous "Ronaldo booked for diving" and "Craig Burley sides against United" moment there. Along with a 'commentator actually acknowledging a Ronaldo kick-out' moment not long ago either, it's turning into an odd day.

They've always favoured the tight man marking approach, over the keep your distance zonal one though.