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I think your comparison with Mascherano is a bit unfair: Mascherano has played something like 60 times for Argentina at 25 years old, is probably the best defensive midfielder in the world and personally I can't think of ten defensive midfielders in the last 15 years or so at his level. Palacios too was about £12m or something too and is a few years older. I've not seen enough of Muamba to judge him. And not sure which Thomas you're referring to. I'm surprised to see you making the "Spearing" argument about just needing to able to run around a bit and pass it five yards to be honest. I also think that Lucas is capable of more than you're giving him credit for too. The ball against Blackburn was a terrific pass for instance. There's a serious lack of movement at the moment in front of and wide of our central midfielders (never worse than the other night) which tends to make them all look bad. I thought we looked better when Aquilani came on because his movement off the ball was so conspicuous compared to that of his team-mates. If the players wide and in front of him were delivering he'd not be such an issue. In the same way that Mikel is less of an issue for Chelsea fans (though most don't seem to rate him) and Fletcher became less of an issue for United fans once the attacking players were delivering. I know you're not pinning our failings this season on him - just using him an analogy - but personally I think that Dirk would currently be a much better symbol of our problems at present. There's a good debate to be had about whether Lucas alongside Masch is right but that's an altogether different matter.

For all Rafa's many failings trying to pander to the media really, really isn't one of them. Can you not even see that? If you can't you're even stupider than I thought - which is quite an achievement given my view of the intelligence of a man who wanted Reid as manager. (Sorry, forgot you don't like it when this is brought up). If you can see that and posted it anyway it's just another example of your pathetic need for attention by posting irritating rubbish.

I'd be amazed if there was anyone who wouldn't exchange the manager for serious investment that secured the future of the club given the precariousness of our finances and situation. My view is similar to your in terms of my preference for what happens from here.

Reasserting Gunga Din's point parrot fashion adds nothing. If the majority of managers get less than three years at big clubs (which they do) the statement is pointless. The point would only have any validity at all if managers regularly stayed at big clubs for more than 3 years without winning their domestic league so that we could then see how they did in years 3-6 for instance and compare that to their performance in years 1-3. It's like saying that FTSE 100 chief executives tend to have success in the first 5 years or not at all when the average tenure is less than five years.

Gunga Din: I think we'll have to agree to disagree on some of these points. Basically I think: 1) Your managers tend to be successful within the first three years point doesn't really hold water as most managers at big clubs don't last three years. In fact if you took the English clubs (who tend to give managers more time) I'd be amazed if the average tenure at Milan, Inter, Juve, Roma, Lazio, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Athletico Madrid, Munich, Dortmund etc was anything like three years. 2) On timing of sacking managers I agree that there's no magic formula. But I disagree with your conclusion. I'm still basically of the view that Rafa has done enough in his time here to deserve the chance to turn things around next season. Other top-tier managers have had that, other Liverpool managers have had that, I think he deserves that. 3) I certainly think he's made some significant mistakes but don't agree with you on extent of his responsibility this season. 4) Fine it's a gut feeling and you're right that players do tend to back their manager to the press. Gerrard perhaps has said less than the others but Torres has said way more than he strictly needs to about his views on Rafa/what would happen if we didn't qualify for the CL. Reina looks a certainty for a new contract and Mascherano sounds encouraging so I think the evidence on three of our best four players is quite good. Not one of them has been remotely as equivocal as Gerrard was 5-6 years ago for instance. 5) It's clearly correct that the value of the club dimishes if we're not in it. But basically the case your stating is that the owners will realise they need "to speculate (in the transfer market) to accumulate (in terms of a sale)" - and that therefore their interests and our interests are to a degree aligned. That's only true if they think the money that might be needed to get us back in the top four will provide a good ROI in terms of the sale price. We have no way of knowing if they think that and it may cost a lot of money to achieve it whoever the manager is given the relative financial/playing staff positions of the Manchester clubs, Arsenal and Chelsea. I'm glad you're basically not at all concerned by this (there's plenty to worry about as it is) but personally I think this "money will be found" line is nothing more than wishful thinking given that Purslow has said that we need £100m pronto just to refinance the very substantial debt. Even if it's with new owners there's really no guarantee of what they'll do either and what kind of money they'll want to put in to chase the Champions League places.

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You've changed the argument here, presumably as your first one doesn't really stand scrutiny. I trust you're no longer going to keep banging on about managers winning it in the first three years then or not given that most big European clubs change their manager more than that and that, even despite this, there are at least two good examples (both as it happens where the club hadn't won the title for a good while) of managers winning it after the first three years. On your other point, I agree that change can be good for clubs but it's incorrect to imply that change is always good because a new manager has won something when no-one can ever really know if not changing could have led to the same/more/less success. Should Real have sacked Capello and Del Bosque or Inter sacked Lippi so hastily for instance? Should Valencia have f***ed off Rafa so easily to the point he left or Chelsea Mourinho? I also think that in the dreadful position we're in (for which of course the manager takes his share of the blame - though I think his share is less than some do) the very last problem we're facing is complacency. In fact I'd say if anything a total collapse of confidence since we lost a games early on and looked shaky at the back is more to blame than complacency. You also say that if Rafa stays the top players will leave. I'm not sure of what exactly your reasons for thinking this but Reina and Mascherano seem about to sign new contracts, Torres has already said he would stay if we don't make the CL (and praises Rafa constantly). Last time I heard Gerrard on the subject he seemed quite keen on Rafa too. Finally you're always very sanguine about "money being found" this Summer. I'm not and nor I suspect is Purslow judging by what he seems to have leaked to SoS. Given that I tend to think that any new manager would probably not be getting a nice big wedge of cash to spend. Indeed job one might be to sell an asset or two to find an extra £20m for the previous manager and his staffs' pay offs.

Hitzfeld, Dortmund. Most big clubs in Europe change manager more often than every three years though anyway.

Mourinho played the latter system at Chelsea (kind of) when Robben and Duff were fit.

I'm well aware of the facts, thanks. Writing in capitals doesn't help by the way - it just makes you look a bit deranged. Is Reid on your shortlist should a vacancy arise in the Summer? Perhaps he can deliver the style you crave.

Can't help but feel everything would have worked out better if what you wanted had happened and got straight on the phone to Peter Reid to give him the job.

Yep

Tend to agree. Reina and Mascherano being by the sounds of about to sign new contracts (when both could go pretty much anywhere) would suggest he hasn't lost the dressing room.

Can you just f*** off with your attention seeking posts please.

Aquilani's movement has improved us a bit

We need something different here. I'd put Johnson on and get Kuyt off with Gerrard further up. Kuyt has been shocking and if Gerrard isn't up for doing some tracking back tonight it'll be better for all concerned if he does that from a forward position rather than from central midfield. Oh yeah and actually competing and doing the basics would be nice in the 2nd half.

No I think he could play those two IIRC but it's just amazing that there was no huge bust up despite having those three egos in such close proximity.

Cruyff (who with Van Gaal and Mourinho may have had the biggest ego of any recent manager) actually made a big impact in refusing to adapt to the Barca way of doing things as a coach too. For instance he refused to let directors enter the dressing room after games etc. It's actually pretty incredible that Barca broadly kept it together whilst still having Cruyff, Romario and Stoichkov there. The only thing greater than their talent was their egos.

Ancelotti was thought of very highly tactically in his early days at Parma. In Italy he was regarded as an innovator in the mid-1990s as he was keen to use a 4-3-3 system (I think) and had written a long dissertation on it while training to be a coach.

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I've been on it for three times that already.

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