Jim D

Rightly so, it was a show of dissent, the difference being that Rooney made the grave mistake of doing it to a Continental referee rather than an English one. I'm sure the English referee would have given Wayne a big cuddle and told him not to do that again.

Very true, the title winners for the past 10 yrs have had a c**t of a manager (Wenger, Ferguson and Mourinho) and the players reflected their manager in the same way.

That isn't what Shanks said

No because the scenario you are mentioning there is only over one game. You need more than "leading by example" because that is wholly dependent on the players form and that is not enough over a 38 game season because at some point that said player will lose form, you need something more than that. Yeats had it, Hughes had it, Souness had it etc etc. Gerrard doesn't.

Gerrard is Captain material in one respect but he will never be a title winning Captain because he would have to "lead by example" for each of those 38 League games and we know that isn't going to happen. His form determines how well his team mates respond to him. He can leads us to Cups, he has proven he can do that (European Cup Final and the FA Cup Final goals) but cup competitions are different because you only need to play well over a short number of games. I'm going to make a very bold/controversial statement, I don't think Liverpool will win the Premiership with Steven Gerrard as Captain, however if we do and I'll be the first to celebrate by the way, I will hold my hand up.

Sometimes that is what a player needs, a right kick up the backside to pull themselves together. Wouldn't Roy Keane or Souness have done the same? The Captain has 90mins on the pitch to get his messages across, a Manager however only has the half time interval to do it, that is why whoever you choose as Captain is important. It is a shame that we will never find out whether Carragher did have the capability of being captain because he was never given it primarily.

Yes they are good attributes but it is not enough to be a Captain of a title winning side. This situation with Gerrard being Captain today kind of reminds me of Manchester United in the 1980s, not too dissimilar to us now. A good team, winning cups but always falling short in the League. They had a Captain called Bryan Robson, nicknamed "Captain Marvel" because of his ability to "lead by example". When Robson played well the Mancs played well, however, when it came to the big games or games when it wasn't going well, if Robson was off form or injured (he was quite a lot), invariably the Mancs were off form. If I remember in the 85-86 season, when we did the double, the Mancs won their first 10 games of the season, Robson got injured and they fell off the pace. I'm seeing the same situation now mirroring with Liverpool and Steven Gerrard. To some that may seem a very simplistic assumption to make but all you need to do is look at the title winning captains over the past 30yrs to find your answer.

It has got nothing to do with the players position on the football pitch (Even though having a defender as a Captain does have an advantage because he can see all his team mates in front of him) it is much more to do with Personality. Funnily enough looking at the great LFC Captains down the years all of them bar one (Souness) were defenders. Question you would have to ask yourself is this, why didn't Ferguson appoint Scholes Captain instead of Keane in the 1990s? Scholes was a fantastic player, who you could say leads by example but Keane was chosen because he had something else that Scholes didn't have, the ability to motivate, organise and take a game by the scruff of neck when it wasn't going well.

He was Cobs, Mascherano over the past few games has shown to us he has the potential to be a future LFC Captain. Problem was the situation got so bad (Majority of the team bottling the game) no one else stuck up for him, he was the only one who seemed to care. Unfortunately in his situation and the complexity of what happened last week he got sent off for his actions.

That is the problem when you have a captain who leads by example, it is very much dependent on form, when he is playing well he gives the whole team a lift but when he isn't he goes into a shell and as a consequence you will invariably find his team mates doing the same thing. That is why I would always appoint a captain who is a good communicator on the pitch, who can lift the players regardless of how well he or the team is playing on the pitch. Form doesn't come into it, it is the personality of the individual itself who can raise his team mates. Take yesterday for example, where was Gerrard trying to take the game by the scruff of the neck, trying to lead the way, trying to get us back into the game, telling the lads to show more composure on the ball. That is what we needed, we never got it, Gerrard bottled it because he couldn't do it and so did the team. The only player who tried to get us out of the situation and showed some balls was Mascherano.

I'd take a captain in the second category over a captain in the first category every time because isn't that what a captain's job is? Every player on the pitch should be leading by example anyway, they are playing for Liverpool Football Club. Players that have respect for their team mates, who can motivate, lead and is always communicating to his team mates on the pitch is to me is Captain material. Look at the great LFC captains of recent years, Yeats, Smith, Hughes, Thompson, Souness and Hansen all of them probably fall into category two. As good as a player Gerrard is he isn't captain material. The one player who stands out every game, who is constantly shouting and communicating to his team mates is Carragher.

I don't subscribe to the attitude that referee's are bring bribed in this country to fix games because such is the media coverage of the game it would eventually be weeded out. However what I do believe is the Mancs do get a lot of favourable decisions by referees. Can anyone remember a major/big decision ever going against the Mancs in the Premier League, where ultimately it cost them the game? Any controversy involving the Mancs during a league game usually sees it favouring them rather than being against them.

Not always, last season at Anfield, you decided to park the bus in front of the goal and got a 0-0 draw. Won't be too surprised to see your lot park the bus again.

Don't forget Johnson will ask Moyes can he be subbed.

Fact of the matter is the Mancs have got better players than us, they had a better bench and a better starting eleven. As much as we did bottle it yesterday we are still behind them in terms of personnel. We match them in terms of the spine of the team but go towards the wings and the fullbacks we are lacking badly. The gulf in quality has been there for years, we are constantly playing catch up with them because of their spending power. When we try to improve, they will improve again further, they don't stand still, which makes Rafa's job twice as hard. You only need to see the difference in their record signings for each area on the pitch: Goalkeeper: Barthez £7.8million, Reina £6million Defender: Ferdinand £30million, Skrtel £6.5million Midfield: Veron £28million, Mascherano £18million?? Forward: Rooney £30million, Torres £20million They can afford and go out and blow £20million on one player but for us to do that it would be regarded as a huge gamble. In the summer Rafa needs to put aside any sentimental values he has for certain players in the squad and get rid of those that are simply not good enough. We need 2 or 3 TOP CLASS signings, a winger or wide player, a full back and possibly another striker. Only then will we have a chance of challenging for the League title because at the moment the Mancs are the benchmark. Pennant, Voronin, Kewell, Kuyt and Riise are my choices to go. Crouch, Benayoun, Finnan and Hyypia are 50/50. Aurelio and Arbeloa are safe.

Which makes it worse, that said incident should have been dealt with immediately, not in a couple of weeks. What Ferguson did was a very serious offence, it was slander and was accusing the FA of being biased and corrupt. Anything less than a hefty fine plus a 5 game touchline ban would be a joke.

Simplistic but you may be actually onto something there Snorky. Once the Mancs come up against decent opposition in Europe they can't outplay the big teams so they try to bully their way past them. However referees in Europe can see what they are trying to do and don't allow them to do that. Once they are back in the Premier League playing against a big team they'll dish it out at every given opportunity because they know they can get away with it. To be honest I don't understand why the game over here is refereed different to the rest of continental Europe. Its the same game, same rules, so why do officials over here referee the game in a different way. You see challenges on the continent that would go unpunished in the English game, why?

Actually I think Rafa should have said that If Ferguson can call the referee and his supremo a cheat and get away with it then why not Rafa? (Note: He has got away with it because as of YET he still has not been punished for it, 2-3 weeks after the said incident)

Totally, you only need to look at the two respective benches to show the difference in quality between the two squads.

Who cynically kicked Torres to death, who in turn got no protection from the homer referee at all. Makes your manager look like a complete hypocrite by constantly moaning about Ronaldo not getting enough protection from referees. One thing I've learned about you Mancs over the years is this, is when you get bullied you don't like it but when you play a team who are of similar ability, you don't try to out play the opposition, you just end up dishing it out yourselves left right and centre. (Reyes for Arsenal springs to mind).

If you say so Andy Though I much prefer to say inept or he was just a complete Homer.

Bennett has now set a precedent for himself with the Mascherano situation. Any form of dissent, whether that is questioning the referee about a decision or verbally abusing him is now a automatic yellow card. Lets just see if he applies this same rule in future games. Mind you a lot Manchester United players could have easily been booked because there was numerous times in the game where the referees decision was questioned. Namely Ferdinand and Ronaldo. Whereas Torres got booked for questioning a referees decision which led to the whole Mascherano situation.

I personally believe we just got to get on with it now, take Mascherano's punishment on the chin. Yes we weren't helped by an indifferent performance from the referee on the pitch but in the current climate of football there was always a possibility that what happened yesterday was going to happen. Now we need to as fans focus all our attention onto the game against the Bitters, this game is of vital importance and we need to at least avoid defeat to remain in pole position for 4th place. Moaning and bit**ing about Bennett all week isn't going to make much of a difference, the FA will back their man regardless. There is a thread in general footy about Bennett started by Snorky which I think is a good idea, where we can see whether he applies his "new rule" consistently in future premiership games. Naturally if he doesn't then we will know he made a bad mistake in sending off Mascherano. It is hard to ignore the whole situation particularly because it was against our fiercest rivals but we now need to focus all of our support and energy onto the team for Saturday. I'm over it now, I was livid yesterday and last night but after having a few beers my entire focus is now on Everton. We still got too much to play for this season without this whole situation playing on our minds. Can we start a Liverpool v Everton match thread?

Must go along with this, a lot of people still question whether Rafa can deliver the League title and those people point the finger towards his rotation policy. However another area of possible concern for me is Rafa's ability to motivate his players for League games. His tactical skills are second to none but his man management skills have short comings and in the Premier League being a good "man manager" is probably more important than being a good "tactical manager". Rafa doesn't have this problem in Europe because the Champions League in itself is motivating enough for our squad of players, but over a long slog of 38 games the motivation of the Premiership isn't enough and so you are looking to the manager to keep his players focused and motivated over a much longer period. Such is the nature of the English game, it relies more on man management rather than tactics to win games. La Liga less so, that is more tactical and that is why Rafa won two titles with Valencia. Rafa needs to get in a number two who he knows he can trust, can form a more personal bond with the players and can motivate them to the core and keep them focussed over a 38 game season. I feel if he tries to take it on himself, it will just be too much to handle and he will crumble under the intense scrutiny and pressure that is Liverpool Football Club. Possible suggestions for a number 2? Sammy Lee or Phil Thompson perhaps? Look at the Mancs, Ferguson is the motivator of the team, always has been a fantastic man manager but has short comings tactically and that is why the Mancs have fallen short in Europe time and time again. So who does he bring in for that aspect of the game, Carlos Quieroz, a thinker, a tactician. They now have the best of both worlds and they function really well. This season they have a great chance of doing the European Cup/League Title double.

What mistake(s) is that Snorky and does it reflect in the chart I've produced over the past three years performance?