Is Rafa the best out there?

[Guest Kaizer]

Rafa is getting a lot of criticism from almost every corner at the moment, in my opinion mostly from people not being able to see the big picture.

 

We can all agree that Rafa`s attacking signings have mostly been s****, but when he got the money he went and bought Torres, so untill we can clarify if its been because of the budget or because of the ability to spot attacking talent I will not address this subject anymore.

 

Then we have the rotation, I have a clear opinion about that as well, but that will not be the subject for this thread either, what we will discuss on the other hand is what is needed to achieve success.

 

To get the success every Liverpool fan out there long for, first of all you need to have a rock solid defensive set up.

Every one with half a brain will know that without a great defensive set up it will be almost impossible to win anything in modern football, there might be a few exceptions but they will all have had a high number of unusual attacking talents in their team.

 

So, what is the most difficult, organize a great defensive set up or organize an attacking set up that will give you goals?

 

Well honestly its not even a question, the most difficult thing is to organize your defense properly, a lot of good managers have tried and a lot of good managers have failed.

 

Before Rafa came in we had a manager that also was known for his defensive style of play and his counter attacking, but if we take a closer look we will notice there id a big difference between what a superb manager and what a good manager will be able to achieve with his ability to organize a defensive set up.

 

00/01: 39 goals conceeded

01/02: 29 goals conceeded

02/03: 41 goals conceeded

03/04: 37 goals conceeded

--------------------------------

04/05: 41 goals conceeded, Rafa`s first season with a new system for the players etc.

05/06: 25 goals conceeded

06/07: 27 goals conceeded

07/08: 17 goals conceeded in 25 matches and on course to finish with around 25-26 goals this season as well.

 

A few of the players like Carra, Finnan etc which was seen as average players by most have been lauded among the best players in Europe in their positions after Rafa`s arrival, but is it the players that have suddenly turned out to be world beaters or is it the defensive set up that has made them look better than they actually have been.

 

If you look at their positions in their National teams when they have been brought out of this set up you might have a good case to back up such a thought.

 

Ask yourselves how our defenders would fair in a one to one comparison with the players in the other top teams in their respective positions, playerrs bought for £10mill, £16mill, £25mill etc?

Would it be possible to build a case for Rafa having worked wonders with a bunch of decent defenders and turned them into a world class unit?

 

I think there is, I dont think our defensive set up has been made as good as it is by great players, I think its defenders that have been made good by our brilliantly organized set up.

 

How few goals would a defense organized by Rafa actually have conceeded if he could have choosed from players like Evra, Ferdinand, Terry, Vidic, Gallas, Toure, Carvalho, Cole etc, its all hypotetical off course but well worth a thought.

 

I`m not sure the Rafa critics have considered this before they have sharpened their knives, I struggle to think of any manager who has managed to organize such a great defensive set up of such a pool of players.

 

We have conceeded a few silly goals this season, thats for sure, but as a unit we have improved even more, the goals we have conceeded have come because of personal mistakes and in the league we have only conceeded 5 goals from open play this season, in 25 matches, that should tell a thing or two about how brilliantly organized we really are, the rest of goals have come from 4 penalties and 8 from set pieces.

 

So one question to all those out there that want to see the back of Rafa, which other manager out there do you think will be able to achieve this with the same bunch of avrage/decent defenders, personally I cant think of any.

 

And when it comes to our troubles in attack, well we are improving on that bit as well, even if its just been a small step this season, if we keep up our average we will finish with around 61 goals this season which is our best ever tally in the league under Rafa.

If we can get at least two quality attacking players in during the summer and replace some of the dross we are now carrying there is no reason whatsover why we wont challenge next season if Rafa is allowed to build on what he has started, after all we have only lost 3 matches in the league this season.

[pipnasty]

Sorry for the short reply to a long post- but I totally agree with what you have said.

[Maldini]

Rafa Benitez will win a lot of major trophies over the next decade, I would prefer them to be with us than somewhere else. Good post BTW Kaizer.

Edited February 18, 2008 by Maldini

[Sinos]

I can't believe I'm nodding in agreement with what Kaizer has posted.

[Rimbeux]

A lot of sense in that post Kaizer

[surf]

you can prove anything with stats:

 

t's not just about goals conceded, it's about goals scored vs goals conceded and overall points:

 

2000/01 : 71 39 +32 69p

2001/02 : 67 30 +37 80p

2002/03 : 61 41 +20 64p

2003/04 : 55 37 +18 60p

----------------------------

overall. : 254 147 +107 273p

 

2004/05 : 52 41 +11 58p

2005/06 : 57 25 +32 82p

2006/07 : 57 27 +30 68p

----------------------------

overall. : 166 93 +73 208p

 

"break even"

2007/08 : 88 54 +34 65p

[alias75]

Most teams that win trophies do so from the base of a very strong defence, even a team like Man Utd that are lauded for their great attacking players their strength this season has probably been their defence. Theres the odd exception like a Barcelona that have 4 or 5 truly world class attacking players but in the main the teams that win the trophies do so from a strong defensive setup.

 

Rafa certainly knows how to set a team up defensively and we're at our best when we're closing down as a unit pressing high up the pitch, playing a high tempo pressing game and preying on the mistakes we force. This was how we played at the start of the season and the signs were there with the addition of Torres and Mascherano that we'd really taking a few steps forward.

 

For some reason though thats not there anymore, that high tempo pressing game is gone, too many players look disinterested, why has this happened?

 

I have no doubt Rafa was improving the team and when everyone seemed to be pulling in the right direction we looked a really strong team that was tough to break down and played at a tempo most other teams couldnt match. If somehow we can get back to that style of play even if it meant moving out 2 or 3 players that don't buy into anymore i dont think we're that far off.

 

We still need 2 attacking players, and probably at least 1 attacking fullback but the core of the team is already here and its still a very young side. Rafa's style of play relies on the players working together as a unit in attack and defence, as soon as 2 or 3 slack off the whole thing breaks down. Hes still one of a small group of managers with a proven track record for winning trophies and we shold think very carefully before we cast him aside.

[Caligula]

It is one thing being hard to beat, any team can put bodies behind the ball. Our problem is a complete lack

of any worthwhile attacking ability.

 

We have a side full of defensive minded players who, for the most part, can't pass the ball forward.

 

In Masherano, Gerrard, Alonso and Lucas we have a group of highly talented players. The problem being, Gerrard aside, none of them know where the goal is.

 

As for our strikers, we all know how bad they are. Can you imagine where we would be had Torres got a long term injury

at the start of the season?

 

There is no way Benitez is going to suddenly become adventurous, he doesn't know how. He is very much from the same mould as Houllier in that the first priority is to avoid defeat. That is all well and good, but it won't win titles. In fact it won't even get close.

[alias75]

It is one thing being hard to beat, any team can put bodies behind the ball. Our problem is a complete lack

of any worthwhile attacking ability.

 

We have a side full of defensive minded players who, for the most part, can't pass the ball forward.

 

In Masherano, Gerrard, Alonso and Lucas we have a group of highly talented players. The problem being, Gerrard aside, none of them know where the goal is.

 

As for our strikers, we all know how bad they are. Can you imagine where we would be had Torres got a long term injury

at the start of the season?

 

There is no way Benitez is going to suddenly become adventurous, he doesn't know how. He is very much from the same mould as Houllier in that the first priority is to avoid defeat. That is all well and good, but it won't win titles. In fact it won't even get close.

 

Your right Benitez is never going to play like Barcelona or Arsenal but the Valencia side he brought to Anfield played some great stuff, and when we've got it right here the football is very effective and personally id be happy watching that style of football every week when its done right.

 

The problem is when you have 2 or 3 players either off form or not giving 100% the whole system breaks down because its reliant on everyone putting in a shift and everyone pulling for the same cause, thats not happening at the moment.

 

With better attacking players the style of play will be better, who hasn't enjoyed watching Torres this season, even Babel in spells has produced some sublime moments we need more players of the Torres level in attack and the type of football will naturally improve.

[MFletcher]

Excellent post mate.

 

Conceding five goals from open play in 25 matches is a staggering statistic really.

Edited February 18, 2008 by MFletcher

[Guest Kaizer]

I`m not sure you have understood what I`m trying to say, Rafa has build the foundations through a rock solid defensive set up that is improving this season as well even if we have had Agger out for almost all the season, we have conceeded 5 goals from open play in 25 matches, thats nothing else than a remarkable stat and no one of the other teams comes even close.

 

If you want to look at our goals stats you can look here.

 

http://www.premiersoccerstats.com/TeamGoal...MNAME=Liverpool

 

If you concede 35+ goals in a season it does not matter if you make up the numbers in goals scored because you normally will have to improve on the most difficult aspect of it all to challenge and probably improve your goal tally as well , we only have one challenge before we are right up there, start converting our chances because the chances are there, the only problem is that other than Torres our strikers are not good enough and usually misses instead of actually scoring when they get the chances.

 

We have played against the mancs and lost, Chelsea and got two draws and Arsenal and got one draw so far, if anyone with their hands on their heart can say we were the poorer team in any of these matches I will be surprised.

 

With the knowledge that we have the foundations in place and only small imrovement will be needed, is this the time to sack the manager, is this the time to get someone in which more than likely will not maintain our brilliant defensive record and by that probably will have to fight it out on two fronts?

 

The changes in the team will have to be radical I guess and when we are so close it does not make sense at all, our indiffirent home form will not continue for the rest of the season.

 

If we knock out Inter our season is more than alive and if we get knocked out we will finish 4th comfortably, neither of the situations are good reasons to get rid of Rafa after a season with only three losses so far, 5 conceeded goals from open play so far, improvement in our goal tally even if most of our attacking layers have been abysmal and not to forget what has been going on behind the scenes.

[Caligula]

and if we get knocked out we will finish 4th comfortably,

 

 

 

Considering our results this year, that is a plain daft statement.

[alias75]

I think your right setting up a good defensive unit is tougher than most people think, you only have to look at teams like Newcastle or Spurs or even Real Madrid that continually have problems defensively. To some extent improving the attacking play is easier because its not as structured, you get better attacking players and your attacking play should naturally improve because a lot of that is down to the natural ability of your attacking players.

 

Rafa is in an elite group of managers that have a proven track record of winning things, when his teams play the way their supposed to the football is great to watch and a nightmare to play against, he needs players pulling together and at the moment i think thats the reason the performances have been so poor.

 

Personally id be more inclined to ship out those players that dont want to play for him anymore before we replace the manager.

[Rimbeux]

It is one thing being hard to beat, any team can put bodies behind the ball. Our problem is a complete lack

of any worthwhile attacking ability.

 

We have a side full of defensive minded players who, for the most part, can't pass the ball forward.

 

In Masherano, Gerrard, Alonso and Lucas we have a group of highly talented players. The problem being, Gerrard aside, none of them know where the goal is.

 

As for our strikers, we all know how bad they are. Can you imagine where we would be had Torres got a long term injury

at the start of the season?

 

There is no way Benitez is going to suddenly become adventurous, he doesn't know how. He is very much from the same mould as Houllier in that the first priority is to avoid defeat. That is all well and good, but it won't win titles. In fact it won't even get close.

 

We dont put bodies behind the ball and say get past that lads, we press to get the ball back. big difference.

 

I agree we dont pass well from the back going forward, I dont think there is a significant responsibility for players you mention to score, they should be coming from the forwards and the wide players. I dont think it's a question of being adventurous. it's about buying the right attacking players for a change and organising the side better in terms of supporting the man with the ball and using the ball constructively. And yes that does win titles as you well know. Will Rafa be around to do that or be the man to do that? We'll see.

[Caligula]

We dont put bodies behind the ball and say get past that lads, we press to get the ball back. big difference.

 

I agree we dont pass well from the back going forward, I dont think there is a significant responsibility for players you mention to score, they should be coming from the forwards and the wide players. I dont think it's a question of being adventurous. it's about buying the right attacking players for a change and organising the side better in terms of supporting the man with the ball and using the ball constructively. And yes that does win titles as you well know. Will Rafa be around to do that or be the man to do that? We'll see.

 

I didn't mean that we defend that way, just that any team can produce a good defensive unit. But thinking about it, Kuyt does spend a lot of time in our area when he could be offering an outlet further forward.

[MFletcher]

I didn't mean that we defend that way, just that any team can produce a good defensive unit. But thinking about it, Kuyt does spend a lot of time in our area when he could be offering an outlet further forward.

 

Not every team can produce a good defensive unit. Most can produce competent defensive units.

 

Rafa has produced a world class defensive unit.

[Caligula]

Not every team can produce a good defensive unit. Most can produce competent defensive units.

 

Rafa has produced a world class defensive unit.

 

That can't produce coherant, attacking football.

[MFletcher]

That can't produce coherant, attacking football.

 

You start with the defence. Better attacking players = better attacking play. Those players cost money. We've now signed the likes of Torres and Babel, and will probably add players of similar quality in the summer if Rafa is still here.

[Earl Hafler]

and if we get knocked out we will finish 4th comfortably,

Considering our results this year, that is a plain daft statement.

 

As was pegging back Arsenal by Christmas. ( For a man obsessed with stats, his predictions are generally based on poor personal judgement )

 

This is generalising a little but we've gone from the wonderful attacking, defensively frail football of Evans through two spells under managers who are defensive minded first and foremost. Sure, there have been games where we've played some brilliant stuff but i think we've been behind Arsenal and the Mancs in terms of style for about 10 years now. It took Ferguson £40-50m and a couple of seasons to get his forward line right but he stuck at it. Had someone like Babel been at Arsenal or Man Utd they would have probably played more football and began to flourish. Someone like Voronin would have remained a back-up player and not been rotated with better, more expensive signings.

 

I'd like a balance and i think it's impossible to when so many changes are made in midfield and attack.

 

Give Rafa £80m to spend. Who would he spend it on and would he utilise those players to their potential ? I have major doubts after what i've witnessed this season. Rafa's poor judgement has been clouded over by the row between the owners.

He needs a new number 2 and funds. He'll probably get the sack / leave unless G&H are bought out.

 

As i said, i'm not sure a clean slate would help. Picking players like Voronin, Pennant and Kewell instead of Crouch, Babel and Benayoun is bonkers. It's contributing to the low morale within the squad.

[Guest redohagan]

Really good posts - it might be worth bearing in mind that the other big three have not stood still since Rafa arrived - it was not like Rafa/we were trying to catch up to a stalled train. Arsenal, Chelsea and Utd in particular have been investing heaviy - both in terms of players and infrastructure. I am not sure if Rafa is the man to see us gain parity with other three by winning the title - but I am not sure there is anyone else out there who is. That kind of thinking that says change the manager and we win the title is the way the loony toons think. My guess is that we have to give it another two years and see how things come to fruition. No year is going to be more dissapointing than this one - and maybe the young signings will start to come through and maturity of those who hold their place in the first team will lead to something formidable. One final thing - the other three cannot afford for us to win the league - especially UTD - for we are the only other team in the land that can go head to head with them in terms of stature - in that regard I think it is worth perservering with Rafa for a season or two yet.

[Guest RedLegend]

We have a good defence but we've known that for years. So do the mancs, Chelsea and to a slightly lesser extent Arsenal. You need a good defence but no medals are handed out for having a competent defence by itself.

 

Our general play going forward is turgid, slow, one-paced and laboured and that is a huge problem right now as I'm not convinced that it will change markedly just by dropping two more expensive players in there.

Edited February 18, 2008 by RedLegend

[MFletcher]

As was pegging back Arsenal by Christmas. ( For a man obsessed with stats, his predictions are generally based on poor personal judgement )

 

This is generalising a little but we've gone from the wonderful attacking, defensively frail football of Evans through two spells under managers who are defensive minded first and foremost. Sure, there have been games where we've played some brilliant stuff but i think we've been behind Arsenal and the Mancs in terms of style for about 10 years now. It took Ferguson £40-50m and a couple of seasons to get his forward line right but he stuck at it. Had someone like Babel been at Arsenal or Man Utd they would have probably played more football and began to flourish. Someone like Voronin would have remained a back-up player and not been rotated with better, more expensive signings.

 

I'd like a balance and i think it's impossible to when so many changes are made in midfield and attack.

 

Give Rafa £80m to spend. Who would he spend it on and would he utilise those players to their potential ? I have major doubts after what i've witnessed this season. Rafa's poor judgement has been clouded over by the row between the owners.

He needs a new number 2 and funds. He'll probably get the sack / leave unless G&H are bought out.

 

As i said, i'm not sure a clean slate would help. Picking players like Voronin, Pennant and Kewell instead of Crouch, Babel and Benayoun is bonkers. It's contributing to the low morale within the squad.

 

Rafa's 'big money' purchases have been excellent. I'd trust him fully with a large transfer budget. Cheaper players are always going to be hit and miss.

Edited February 18, 2008 by MFletcher

[Guest Kaizer]

I didn't mean that we defend that way, just that any team can produce a good defensive unit. But thinking about it, Kuyt does spend a lot of time in our area when he could be offering an outlet further forward.

 

You could not be further from the truth, most teams and managers just cant produce a good defensive unit, thats why those who actually can usually are the ones who win things, they can probably produce a decent unit that conceds around +40 goals a season but thats more than 1 goal each game.

 

06/07: only 5 teams conceded less than 40 goals, only 3 less than 35 and 3 less than 30.

05/06: only 5 teams conceded less than 40 goals, only 4 less than 35 and 2 less than 30.

04/05: only 4 teams conceded less than 40 goals, only 2 less than 35 and 2 less than 30.

03/04: only 4 teams conceded less than 40 goals, only 2 less than 35 and 1 less than 30.

02/03: only 2 teams conceded less than 40 goals, only 1 less than 35 and 0 less than 30.

01/02: only 4 teams conceded less than 40 goals, only 1 less than 35 and 1 less than 30.

00/01: only 3 teams conceded less than 40 goals, only 1 less than 35 and 0 less than 30.

 

Rafa`s numbers so far have been 41(new system, new team etc), 25, 27 and on his way to around 26 this season.

 

You need to have the right ideas and you need to have the knowledge and most importantly you need to be able to transform these ideas into the players performance on the pitch and that is by far the hardest part.

[Rimbeux]

I didn't mean that we defend that way, just that any team can produce a good defensive unit. But thinking about it, Kuyt does spend a lot of time in our area when he could be offering an outlet further forward.

 

When? At corners?

[Earl Hafler]

When? At corners?

 

Our corners are that bad he probably is in our area...