Formation changes

[Ronnie Whelan]

After out recent performances my initial inclination is too look beyond the form of the players personally and try to find a cause more deep rooted such as Pako's departure. Correct me if im wrong, but a fitness coaches job is work on the fitness of the players? Our players do not look unfit, and professional athlete's would not loose fitness within the period since Pako's departure.

 

Which brings me back to the actual form of the players and missing two key performers. Xabi may not have had the headline grabbing performances in a while, actually, has he ever really grabbed the headlines aside from the two goals from inside his own half? Primarily he performs in a key role for this Liverpool side and does a job which is not as glamorous as marauding runs forward and scoring goals from outside the box, but it is probably more important. He links our defence and attack. Without that constant link we are in trouble going forward and frustration grows. Momo was playing in that role last night for a while, but we all know he doesnt have the passing ability to full in the gap. Gerrard had a go there too, but without his impetus in the final third we again look a little at sea. Masch's form has been pretty poor recently but when he is on form he can fill in the gap, but he is no Xabi.

 

The bottom line, IMO is that without Xabi or an inform Masch in that position we should positionally be looking at something a little different, something where we would not be relying on a deep lying midfielder to start our attacks. Possibly wing backs, with three central midfielders. We have plently of options at CM in this formation. Stevie, Masch, Momo, & Lucas possibly Benayoun.

 

Thoughts?

Edited October 4, 2007 by Ronnie Whelan

[The_Adder]

After out recent performances my initial inclination is too look beyond the form of the players personally and try to find a cause more deep rooted such as Pako's departure. Correct me if im wrong, but a fitness coaches job is work on the fitness of the players? Our players do not look unfit, and professional athlete's would not loose fitness within the period since Pako's departure.

 

Which brings me back to the actual form of the players and missing two key performers. Xabi may not have had the headline grabbing performances in a while, actually, has he ever really grabbed the headlines aside from the two goals from inside his own half? Primarily he performs in a key role for this Liverpool side and does a job which is not as glamorous as marauding runs forward and scoring goals from outside the box, but it is probably more important. He links our defence and attack. Without that constant link we are in trouble going forward and frustration grows. Momo was playing in that role last night for a while, but we all know he doesnt have the passing ability to full in the gap. Gerrard had a go there too, but without his impetus in the final third we again look a little at sea. Masch's form has been pretty poor recently but when he is on form he can fill in the gap, but he is no Xabi.

 

The bottom line, IMO is that without Xabi or an inform Masch in that position we should positionally be looking at something a little different, something where we would not be relying on a deep lying midfielder to start our attacks. Possibly wing backs, with three central midfielders. We have plently of options at CM in this formation. Stevie, Masch, Momo, & Lucas possibly Benayoun.

 

Thoughts?

 

Good post.

 

We simply don't seem to have the players who can pass and keep the ball. You don't know what you've got till its gone and without Xabi and Agger we look clueless in possession. Maybe its time for Lucas.

[_00_deathscar]

It's time for Skywalker.

[alias75]

Lucas has to be a better option than Sissoko for those home games where we see plenty of the ball, from the little we've seen of him he keeps it simple and doesnt give it away much as you'd expect from a Brazilian, when we play at home and see lots of the ball we cant have Sissoko trying to link the play his passing is simply too inconsistent.

 

If Leto was deemed good enough to start yesterday Lucas should be too, lets face int in hindsight he would have been more effective than Momo.

 

I think we arent far off from seeing Alonso and Mascherano in the middle with Gerrard wide right again and given license to roam, Pennant may be a decent player but i think we have to do better and Yossi isnt a wide right player.

[Magic8Ball]

lose 2 ball players and we turn into a houllier team -- we desperately need someone who can run with the ball and link the midfield and the attack

[Rimbeux]

Keep it 4-4-2 but really concentrate on the combinations and balance, have players in their comfort areas, more changes could really backfire.

 

I'd look at Arbeloa at left back with Babel or Benny ahead of him, I'd say Finnan and Pennant have the best understanding on the right. I'd only play Crouch with Kuyt, and use Torres with Kuyt or Voronin, no other combinations up front. Centrally it's going to have to be Mach and Gerrard bar further injury, with Lucus off the bench, they two just need to find some personal form. Momo suffers more than anyone from Xabi's absence, it's a fundamental thing unfortunately.

[The_Adder]

Lucas has to be a better option than Sissoko for those home games where we see plenty of the ball, from the little we've seen of him he keeps it simple and doesnt give it away much as you'd expect from a Brazilian, when we play at home and see lots of the ball we cant have Sissoko trying to link the play his passing is simply too inconsistent.

 

If Leto was deemed good enough to start yesterday Lucas should be too, lets face int in hindsight he would have been more effective than Momo.

 

I think we arent far off from seeing Alonso and Mascherano in the middle with Gerrard wide right again and given license to roam, Pennant may be a decent player but i think we have to do better and Yossi isnt a wide right player.

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

Gerrard needs a kick up the a*** and putting him on right with them two in the middle and Babel on the left looks like our best best.

 

I'd actually play Lucas and Masch in the middle, I don't wanna hear none of this 'he's new and throwing him him now isn't a good thing' b******s. The lad is good enough, he has the quality and its something we need right now. Hes calm in possession and as far as playing Sissoko over him, espesh for the type of games you mentioned is a joke.

[Logic]

Lately it has looked to me like we are playing a new 5-0-5 tactic. Basically we have the 4 defenders plus a holding midfielder who holds no matter what.

 

Then we have a whole lot of empty space.

 

Then we have the front 5 who play flat and static.

 

So this quite obviously results in our much beloved hoofing from the back. The defence has no midfield to pass to. This new 4-4-2 (or 5-0-5 as I call it) we've been playing this season might work against the worst teams in the league. But it isn't going to work against decent sides.

 

I want Benitez to return to the tactic he had with Valencia. IMO we almost have the players for it.

 

Defence: Regular back five

Midfield: One holding midfielder (Alonso), one box-to-box midfielder (Gerrard), and one linking with the attack (Yossi).

Wingers providing width (Babel, Pennant)

Striker: Torres.

 

If every single player would be fit we'd line up like this:

 

Reina

Finnan - Carra - Agger - Arbeloa

- - - - -Alonso - Gerrard - - - --

Pennant - - - Yossi - - - Kewell (or more likely Babel)

- - - - - - Torres - - - - - - - -

 

In this team Reina, Carra, Agger, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres should play as long as they are fit. Leaving RB, LB and the attacking midfield positions up for grabs.

 

Then we have Hyypia (or Arbeloa) covering for the position in central defence, Masch for Alosno, Sissoko (or maybe Lucas) for Gerrard, And a whole lot of options for the attacking midfielders.

 

At least here we'd have a link between defence and attack. Something our current 5-0-5 tactic doesn't provide.

[The_Adder]

Thats the formation I wanna see. Its what Barca use, ita what Chelsea used to win the league.

 

Not sure we have a right sided player for it who, Pennant simply doesn't score enough and you need players who score from wide in that formation. I'd put Gerrard there and play Masch with Xabi.

[Guest Kaizer]

Case:

Liverpool- Marseille 0-1

 

There is nothing wrong with the formation, its how we use it and what players we set up in it.

 

Last night we played a CM that has never played together before, and hopefully never again since it takes away Gerrards best attributes playing him behind Momo and how can anyone justify that?

 

We played two wingers that had 6 starts together in their Liverpool career and can be seen as sqaud players at best.

 

We played two strikers up front that both are used to be playing as the front striker and Crouch as the link player is too slow, uses too much time on the ball etc.

 

If these three things were not bad enough in itself it becomes a tragedy when we mix it all together, on top of it all we started with a LB that has been out injured for months and have just come back into the first team.

 

Looking at it I get a feeling we did not take Marseille seriously, something that would be a real worry.

 

So its not the formation but how we set up our players in it.

 

Answers:

 

Use either Voronin or Kuyt as the link player, never play Gerrard and Momo together in CM but if you do such a mistake, dont start two new wingers together in such a match on top of it all.

Edited October 4, 2007 by Kaizer

[IgPig]

Fair assessment, that

[Ronnie Whelan]

Use either Voronin or Kuyt as the link player, never play Gerrard and Momo together in CM but if you do such a mistake, dont start two new wingers together in such a match on top of it all.

 

 

Why on earth do wingers need to have experience playing in the same team?

[Dee]

any team without Sissoko is definitely a better option at the moment - if he starts against Spurs I'm going to go mental and streak on the pitch

[Guest Kaizer]

Why on earth do wingers need to have experience playing in the same team?

 

Not in the same team, but in the team, if I had written between them you might have understood it better.

Edited October 4, 2007 by Kaizer

[Ronnie Whelan]

Bennayoun has played out wide for LFC before, only a handful of occasions, but he has played there nonetheless. I agree in hindsight that we possibly could have went for more experience down the left, but that would have meant starting JAR who has been s***e this season and was again caught out of possition on a few occasions last night. We have to bed in the new players at some stage, and on paper, with Marseille under new management and missing their star performer, last night seemed like a decent enough platform. Rafa trusts Leto and thats good enough for me.

[Cooldude]

Atm I'd prefer to play more of a 4-4-1-1, with a Gerrard or Benayoun in behind Torres

 

That is simply because we're getting smacked in the midfield for some reason and it needs major reinforcement, but the downside of this is if we continue to hoof it up field like we have, it'd just be asking too much of Torres.

 

No formation would work unless the players start to up their workrate and actually start running off the ball when we have the ball and close down when we don't have the ball

[Guest Kaizer]

Atm I'd prefer to play more of a 4-4-1-1, with a Gerrard or Benayoun in behind Torres

 

That is simply because we're getting smacked in the midfield for some reason and it needs major reinforcement, but the downside of this is if we continue to hoof it up field like we have, it'd just be asking too much of Torres.

 

No formation would work unless the players start to up their workrate and actually start running off the ball when we have the ball and close down when we don't have the ball

 

I hope I never see Gerrard in a starting position behind a lone striker again, he is nothing more than average in this position, its a complete waste of his abilities.

[Cooldude]

I hope I never see Gerrard in a starting position behind a lone striker again, he is nothing more than average in this position, its a complete waste of his abilities.

 

And he's been setting the world on fire in his apparently best position, centre midfield?

 

What you just said makes no sense

[Kindred]

Whilst my personnal preference is for 4231 as mentioned above, I really can't see Rafa changing it. He tried different formations in his first season here and has since reverted to 442 and pretty much stuck with it, apart from the odd occassion and as rafa says

 

"I always say the same thing. What is the difference between 4-3-3 and 4-5-1? Only whether you play the wingers deep or high. Then if you press the other team they will play deep, 4-5-1. And if you cannot press them because they are stronger than you, they'll play 4-3-3. People talk about systems, but maybe they don't know a lot about systems.

 

"At Valencia we played 4-2-3-1. And here, when we play our best football, we play 4-2-3-1. When we control the game, when we score goals, we play 4-2-3-1. What's the difference? It depends on the second striker. If he goes back to defend, it's 4-2-3-1. If he stays up, it's 4-4-2. It's the same. The system is only designed around numbers. The most important thing is what the players do."

 

Re Pako ,one possible concern maybe now that hes gone, there is noone in the backroom staff able to stand up to rafa and say no, which would at least make him stop and rethink on occassions.

[Rimbeux]

And he's been setting the world on fire in his apparently best position, centre midfield?

 

What you just said makes no sense

 

 

Neither does addressing his poor form by moving him into his worst position

[Cooldude]

Neither does addressing his poor form by moving him into his worst position

 

This is not addressing the poor form of one player, it is addressing the poor form of the team in general. We're getting smacked in the midfield so you put three in there with one in advanced position. Then you either play Gerrard or Benayoun in the position, Gerrard because he is the only availble central mid who can play in a more advanced position.

 

It is not about finding form for Gerrard, it's finding form for the team. If we make any sort of changes and the team plays well with Gerrard playing s*** then all well and good

[Bootle Buck]

Lots of great points in this thread. While our formation is worrying, my main concern is with the lack of conviction and determination being shown on the field. Last night we looked quite happy to sit 5 yards off a Marseille player and let them come at us. Very little closing down or harrying of their players. This coming off a perfromance at Porto were we took 5 minutes to get into their half. The CL is supposed to be a big competition yet we look so flat and disinterested. I can't believe Rafa isn't more animated and vocal on the line when his team were a shambles on the pitch. We have a big squad yet players seem too comfortable in getting games regardless of form or ability. New players should be playing out of their skin to prove themselves and some of our older players should be leading by example. Unfortunately we look poor in all aspects of our game.

Edited October 4, 2007 by Bootle Buck

[Rimbeux]

This is not addressing the poor form of one player, it is addressing the poor form of the team in general. We're getting smacked in the midfield so you put three in there with one in advanced position. Then you either play Gerrard or Benayoun in the position, Gerrard because he is the only availble central mid who can play in a more advanced position.

 

It is not about finding form for Gerrard, it's finding form for the team. If we make any sort of changes and the team plays well with Gerrard playing s*** then all well and good

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by getting smacked. We're not being over-run, struggling defensively, were just not able to pass the ball, I say just, but that's it. We're continuously going back to front and getting no momentum going. It's starting with midfielders giving it away and then defenders not trusting their own ability to find midfielders or trust the midfielders not to lose it.

 

Solutions? Not convinced flooding the midfield and narrowing the game and space will help anything more than sideways movement, I dont think it will give us a fluidity going forward, we will just keep it one more pass before going back to front again. Having wide men who keep their width (at least one) should give us the ability to stretch the play, create space, and move the ball forward. We, our team, get more of a balance from having a striker dropping off to harry or pick the ball up behind their midfield than with a midfielder trying to break forward to join a lone striker.

 

I think 4-3-3 is great if you're struggling defensively or trying to keep a clean sheet away in the CL for example, or even if you're playing great football and/or trying to create a platform for a front three of great ability who wont be in your half much. I'm not sure it solves any of our issues of creating chances and moving the ball forward dangerously, more like add to them.

[floyd the barber]

i believe we have won every game this season where kuyt and torres have started......only draw was i think porto away.

 

so..those two should start every game...by far the best partnership

[Cooldude]

We are not being "overran" yet, but what is happening is our central midfield is failing to control the centre of the pitch, apply pressure on the opposition when they have the football and constantly losing possession when we do have the football. Marseille had so much time yesterday in midfield to just set up play and slow up the game. They had more possession than us FFS.

 

That is what I mean by getting smacked. The opposition midfield is allowed to do as they wish while ours are f***ing up.

 

Last season, we were controlling games, creating chances and not be able to put it in the net. ATM we don't even look like creating a chance, that is because we have lost that dominance of midfield and possession that we used to have.

 

Which logically means you strengthen the midfield by putting another man there

 

We haven't been playing a classic 4-4-2 anyway, Kuyt normally plays so far up the pitch Torres is playing on his own for most of the time anyway. Since one of the strikers always constantly goes into midfield, I don't see how we're flooding it. The only difference now is you get a real midfielder who can do something up the pitch to play in that position so that he might have a chance to be more effective.