shaq

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Hyypia Gerrard Lucas

Then he's an idiot. There was absolutely no need for Fabregas and Eboue, I think it was, to play the ball into the Spurs area, needlessly conceding possession. I think the commentator picked up on it when Spurs got their third, and then Eboue, if it was him, did exactly the same thing a minute later. Arsenal can pass the ball around the ball well enough that they could have shut Spurs out in those last couple of minutes. Not that I'm complaining...

Who will win the league? Liverpool Top four? Liverpool 91pts, Man Utd 88pts, Chelsea 85pts, Aston Villa 79pts Relegated? Stoke, WBA, Bolton Player of the season so far? Xabi Alonso Game of the season so far? Arsenal v Spurs Goal of the season so far? David Bentleys v Arsenal Surprise of the season? Tottenham Hotspur

I hope Torres is back on Saturday - he could really fill his boots there!

Arsenal yesterday didn't have a midfielder over 21 yesterday, and it showed. 90 minutes almost up, two goal lead, and rather than concentrating on keeping the ball, they look for another goal. Having then conceded, which should definitely have been the signal to keep the ball, play into the corner, they show they haven't learnt their lesson - and lose the ball again trying to get a fifth. I really can't see any of the other top four being so foolish, and that's why I think Arsenal will continue to fall short. I can see what Wenger is trying to achieve - he's trying to build up the team in the same way that Ferguson first did - a batch of kids growing up together. The question is, will he be able to keep them together long enough to achieve that without them getting impatient and moving on?

The Internazionale manager also criticises Cristiano Ronaldo, Fernando Torres and Robin van Persie for the same offence. "Drogba, Ronaldo, Torres and Van Persie are the divers. Who dives more? Who has won more penalties in recent years? But English football is the one that criticises the divers the most." http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/oc...rleague-chelsea Didn't think this t*t could sink any lower in my estimation, but he continually manages to surprise me. Don't see how anyone can label Torres as a diver - Drogba and Ronaldo, fair enough. Also, I wonder how Drogba feels to be stabbed in the back by the one manager he adores?

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I know. I forgot the old adage, never argue with an idiot - they bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience. Correct me if I'm wrong but your meaningful contribution to this thread has been to suggest Sammy Lee as a replacement for Rafa?

Good to see that you are happy to wait - do you have any guarantees that Rafa is happy to wait? Yes you did - when I asked him if he had names of better managers, he said that we would give them to me when they were needed - that to me implies that he does have names of better managers You need to learn to read between the lines. Every single one of his posts in this thread is critical of Rafa and his signings. It's as clear as daylight that he doesn't think Rafa is good enough - does he really need to spell it out? Now you are losing the plot. The comparison is entirely valid - players and managers are both given contract extensions way before the end of the existing contract as a means of giving them a pay rise and securing the player/manager to the club. Inevitably, a new contract will be on improved terms - it's a way of saying that you are important and we want you to stay. If, as you seem to agree, Rafa is currently the best man for the job, then why shouldn't we give a gesture to say that we value what you have done so far? Surely even you can see that he is more likely to want to stay if he give him that vote of confidence? In your case, I can see that you don't want to have him immediately replaced, but I'm not sure you should be speaking for others.... You are just happy to see his contract run down, effectively making it more likely that his head may be turned by others, all the while saying that you don't want him replaced yet. Maybe I don't get it, but I suspect that's because you're arguments are all over the place and you don't know yourself what you want for the club.

What, you mean like the yanks did that almost caused Rafa to have a hissy fit and walk out? That is a totally different question - if he leaves, he leaves and life goes on. The question is, should we do everything we can to ensure that he doesn't want to leave? I think we should, and to my mind that means offering him a new contract, with improved terms, ASAP.

Who said anything about a lifetime contract? If we don't have a better replacement, then we do want to keep him, if only by default, then we should offer him a contract so that he feels appreciated and doesn't pursue any other offers that may be avaiable to him. If you agree that he is a top manager, then surely you can see that other clubs - especially the newly ambitious - would be interested in trying to poach him?

It would be good to see the other end of list... I make it 118 mins for Torres to bag his first, wonder where that is on the list? 74 mins for Owen.

If the medical experts were certain that he would fully recover from his injury, then yes, I do. I'm very much in the pro-Agger camp, and the thought of losing him worries me. We can win the league under Rafa, but we need to keep our best players to do that - and Agger for me is in that group.

I think after 16 pages with no real alternatives offered, it's fair to say that there isn't one - I'm sure at least one would have been suggested otherwise by now. (I'm ignoring the suggestion of Sammy Lee for obvious reasons). Therefore, we are arguing with people who don't think we should take all necessary steps to keep the present incumbent for as long as we want, but don't know who they would replace him with if he decided to leave. I don't know why we are bothering.

Managers (and players) do bugger off if they feel that they are not wanted/appreciated at their current club. An indication of how much the manager/player is wanted is by the length of the contract offered and the frequency at which it is renewed. For a top player like Torres we offer a long contract, but then renew it way before the end, giving him improved terms, and more security. The same should apply to Benitez - even more so.

they really are. I've explained why in the same message that you half-quoted.

I don't know which thread you are reading but it's not this one. Looptroop has already suggested that there are better managers available, he just can't tell us their names yet. If you read any of Souness' posts then I think you'll find that he doesn't think that Rafa is good enough. Once we've established whether we want to keep hold of Rafa, then we can discuss whether that would be more likely aceived by giving him a contract now as opposed to one later. MFletcher said I could wear the drama queen outfit for as long as I like, and it's comfortable, so I'm keeping it on, but thanks for the suggestion.

Names are needed now. Not an idle request, if even you don't believe that there is a better manager than Rafa available, then you have to agree that we have to keep hold of Rafa. Once we've established that, then I can explain why we need to be talking about a new contract now, rather than later.

If there are plenty of other managers out there better than Rafa, then why is it so difficult for one of you to name one? I was genuinely excited when we got in Rafa. Not because I thought Ged was a bad manager, but because I thought Rafa was better. Now it's your turn - you name me the manager who will improve us the way that Rafa improved us over Ged.

The argument that we should not do everything necessary to ensure that Rafa stays with for as long as we want to. Even if true, we don't want to replace Rafa with someone else who can get us fourth place. I'm asking for the name of the manager that will overcome Chelsea and Man U to win us the league. Without that name, you really don't have a leg to stand on.

OK, so if Rafa left today, who do you think should take over? (same question to Souness, and all others sharing a similar opinion to these two) Easy to say this guy's not good enough, we want someone better, without actually providing a realistic option of a better replacement. Without being able to offer a better replacement, your whole argument is totally without basis.

You should do the same

Be Cool, Chili. This is simply a case of a poster looking around for a stick to beat Rafa with. Never mind that very, very few players that Rafa has willingly let go have gone on to play at the level we would be happy to have them in the first team squad, showing that Rafa has been right to let them go. If the coaching at Liverpool was bad, or these players weren't given a chance, then why aren't they starring in other top clubs? However, said poster, for reasons of his own, decides Rafa isn't good enough, and tries to justify his opinion by resorting to this spurious attacks.

Who can say? The people that are suggesting we shouldn't give Rafa a new contract for one. I asked this question near the beginning of the thread: For those that believe that Rafa is replaceable, who would you replace him with? The only answer that I got was from Ant who suggested Sammy Lee (Managerial record: Managed 14 games at Bolton, won 3). For me personally, this is an open and shut case. If there is a much better manager than Rafa who will come to Liverpool, then fine. Although a more important position, the position of manager is just like that of any other player. There are some that think Kuyt is a great player for us. But even the most ardent Kuyt fan would be happy at his sale, if we replaced him with Kaka, or Messi. In the same way, if someone can suggest a much better manager than Rafa who will realistically join us then forget offering Rafa a new contract, I'd be in favour of ripping up his existing one! Note that this replacement cannot be a minor upgrade to Rafa, he has to be a considerable improvement if we are going to set ourselves back a couple more seasons whilst the new guy brings in his team. If such a manager cannot be found, then we are stuck with the current manager, and we do our best to keep him, which means that we don't let his contract run down. If I remember rightly, Gerrard considered leaving Liverpool and one of the main reasons for this was that we dragged our heels over offering him a new contract and so he felt unwanted. The manager may not be bigger than the club, but the position of manager is the most important at the club, and after having got the best guy for the job, it's not a position we should be dicking around with.