alias75

I think thats exactly the problem with some of our play when Stevies on especially through the middle all our play goes through him and most of our players are always looking for him. Now thats also a fault in our players who should be looking to take some responsibility themselves but i think the example you used at Arsenal is exactly the same problem we have. i.e the team is focussed around 1 player too much and if that particular player isnt performing we're stuffed.

At the moment though with the players we have the team is stronger with Gerrard on the right and Masch and Alonso in the middle compared to Gerrard and Alonso with Pennant on the right. Ok if we sign these wingers then of course that changes things but as it stands with the players we have i think we're stronger with Gerrard on the right. Gerrard is not our only "truly world class player" i think people certainly over estimtae how good he is, sure on his day hes a world class player but you actually have to do it consistently for it to matter. Whats the point of having all this talent if your not producing it consistently? His job in the team is to score and create and drive us forward, he hasnt done enough of any of this for some time. Id say Reina, Agger, Alonso, Mascherano, Torres are all top notch players too, so to suggest Gerrard is our only truly great player and without him were nothing is simply wrong (imo) I dont care if he's been playing CM all his life its not his best position, maybe football has changed but his style of play doesnt suit playing there, he doesnt like giving it simple so by trying all these killer passes hes constantly giving it away and tactically he sometimes wanders and leaves big gaps through the middle, play Masch and Alonso in the middle and give Stevie the freedom to try those killer balls 40 yards from the oppositions goal not inside our own half.

Thats how i feel if hes going to whinge when hes subbed or isnt in the middle then hes doing more harm than good, if hes fully motivated and happy to play where the manager picks him he is of course a key player. I think the problem about him tucking in wouldnt be a problem as much if we had better attacking full backs, dont want to keep harping about Arsenal but they dont really have out and out wingers, but they have full backs that get forward a lot and are very good on the ball. Most of us have had enough of Riise's constantly giving it away and Finnan while being a good all round player doesnt have the energy to be that really attacking full back, if we sorted out those 2 positions (and i think Arbeloa is one option) then Stevie could have more of a floating role from the right with the width coming from the fullbacks.

I thought of that just after i hit submit My problem is more with Stevies attitude, all this sulking about being subbed or going on the record as saying he wants to play in the middle if he was playing well you could excuse him but he isnt and you compare him with central midfielders that are much younger and hes miles behind in terms of bossing a game. Because we rely on him so much our performances rely on his form more than is healthy. Looking at Arsenal how players like Hleb, Fabreas, Flamini, etc.. seem to have come on in leaps and bounds since Henry left, that cant be a coincidence, these big players with big personalities can be great when their playing well but they can also have a negative effect on their team mates. Individually we'd be weaker without Stevie but as a TEAM i wonder (plus of course theres who we could sign if he did go )

I want to start this by saying a fully focussed in form Steven Gerrard would get into any team in the world, when hes on form hes by far our most influential player, however what this team doesnt need is a Steven Gerrard that is going to sulk if he doesnt play in the middle, or is going to cause unrest with the manager. You look how Arsenal have blossomed with the departure of their best player and biggest influence and you cant help but wonder if a similar thing would happen here if Stevie was sold or decided he wanted to try his luck overseas. you look at our better performances this season, Derby and Sunderland where gerrard didnt play and in those games albeit against poor teams there was much bigger contributions from many different players. Of course you can also point to games like Chelsea where Gerrard played well but the key question is, is Gerrards presence in the team restricting the other 10 players? Of course Gerrard is going to have good games, hes our best player he should do but is he doing it often enough and overall are we better off with him or without him? The obvious first response would be of course you'd rather him in your team than not, but up until this season id have said the same about Henry and Arsenal but you look at how his leaving has positively affected them and cant help wonder. I think it is clear when Stevie plays through the middle theres too much of an onus on him to do something, he tries too many killer passes and takes too much responsibility on himself, similarly the other players automatically look to him instead of taking responsibility themselves if Stevie isnt playing well and all our play goes through him the team wont play well. Maybe a part solution is to play him wide right, im certainly in the school of thought that thinks he should play there, not only is it his most productive position (imo) but i also think we're a stronger TEAM with him out of the middle. 2 seasons ago the thought of Sevie leaving would fill me with dread, but i think we're quickly coming to the point where either Stevie goes or Rafa goes and in that scenario im sorry but Rafa is much more important. Reading between the lines you have to believe Rafa wouldn't be too worried if Stevie wanted to go, of course hes never going to say that because of Gerrards standing with the fans but im really starting to think Gerrards presence especially in the middle is holding us back, his game hasnt developed as much as it should by now, Fabregas whose only 20 is able to control a game from the middle in a way Gerrard simply cannot.

Not sure if i agree with that but anyway im talking long term not just the last 2 games, Riise is one of our defenders that struggles to keep it and very often resorts to hoofing it long, hes so one footed too that restricts what he can do. My point is if you have 4 or 5 players in a team of 11 that are poor technically or poor passers is it any wonder we dont play well, those weak links will always bring everyone down with them. ideally we need 8 or 9 players that are comfortable in posession, good passers and dont lose it in tight situations, then i think you'd find they would raise the level of others at the moment the reverse is happening.

Leo is spot on i think both Kuyt and Veronin have played ok this season but they cannot play together. Torres and kuyt as a partnership has looked very good. I think the problem is when we play poorly as a team it has a knock on effect on every player, dont want to criticise Hyppia too much but when he plays we do have to defend deeper, that means our midfield has to come deeper and then the risk is our forwards drop into midfield. Also when our passing is as poor as its been its very hard to get anything going, i think we need to get rid of those defenders that are poor in posession most notably Riise and Hyppia, when Aggers back we'll be able to defend a little higher up the pitch and that means our midfield are closer to our forwards and hopefully that improves our play. I think you'll find if you take the 1 or 2 weak links out of the team it will have a positive effect on everybody.

I think the truth has to be a combination of Rafa and the players, Rafa is making some poor decisions at the moment but too many players are under performing too. I refuse to believe their being coached to play the way they are so on the field the players have the responsibility to go out and play and too many arent up to it at the moment.

I agree with that totally, when i was younger i part ran a Saturday football side, the first thing i did was put all our good footballers at the back because these are the players that see a lot of the ball with not much pressure on them. If your fullbacks especially cant pass the ball your never going to be able to get any pattern of play going in midfield things are tighter but at the back there is no excuse. I guess in terms of footballing ability you'd go Aurellio at lef back and Arbeloa at right back at the moment. Dont want to jump to conclusions but you look at Finnan and Carragher over the last month or so and wonder if they've hit their peak. Hopefully Agger coming back improves things because we do defend higher up the pitch when he plays and that helps the midfield too.

Thats correct, but if you look at the team thats played the last month or so the following have been regulars... Hyppia, Riise, Carragher, Momo, Kuyt, Mascherano, so thats 6 that are either very poor passers or at best inconsistent that have been regularly starting the last 6 or so weeks. I dont care who else you pick if you have too many weak links its going to have a knock on effect on everybody. The reverse is probably true, if you pack the team with very good passers and very good technical players those borderline players will probably improve.

But it doesnt have to be like that, its unlikely your going to have 11 players all super confident in posession or great tecnically but so long as its 8 or 9 of the 11 that should be enough. When its 4 or 5 of the 11 it just drags everyone else down. We have the right players for those key positions, Reina is a good footballing keeper, Agger is very good on the ball although i think we need at least 1 more defender comfortable on the ball (Aurellio is an option when he isnt injured) Alonso is very good technically, and in midfield we have Gerrard, Benayoun, Babel who are all good technically and up front we have Torres who already looks miles ahead of anyone else we have up front in terms of his technical ability. So the players are there in those key positions, the key is playing them together often. If that happens i think you'll find those bordeline players like Mascherano, Finnan, Arbeloa, that are more inconsistent with their passing would improve too, as it stands we have too many poor passers and players with poor technical ability and its having the reverse effect and is dragging everyone down with them.

Im going to go with.... ............................Reina............................. Finnan..........Carragher....Agger............Arbeloa Gerrard.......Mascherano...Alonso..........Benayoun ..................Torres..........Babel........................ You could go with Kuyt and Torres up front their partnership has looked the best of all our forward combinations this season, away from home id probably go with Kuyt instead, but id like to see how this team plays, you have lots of very good technical players that are comfortable on the ball, with the protection you get from Mascherano and Alonso it allows Gerrard and Benayoun to go create. Obviously we havent seen Babel up front yet but id like to see how he goes.

Correct plus we have Lucas, Benayoun, Crouch, in reserve that are also very good technical players, good passers and comfortable in posession. So the players are there, but if its a 50/50 split between poor technical players and good/very good technical players in the starting 11 those poor players will drag everyone down with them.

I think we can group our players in 3 categories 1. Top Class 2. Very good 3. Average or coming to the end of their careers We have too many in category 3 that are regularly in the first team and they are dragging everyone else down. I dont care who you have in the team if there are 4 or 5 that are poor passers or cant keep the ball then they're going to drag everyone else down with them. I guess Rafa is to blame partly here too because he picks the team but if you look at the players hes signed Alonso, Agger, Torres, Benayoun, Babel, Aurellio, these are all very good technical players, now we need to see them all playing together without people like Riise or Hyppia or Kuyt.

I think your wrong, ive followed Mascherano's career for a long time and hes the best possible option we could have for that position, i think the problem isnt Mascherano its the players hes playing with, for Argentina his job is simple win it and give it to the flair players, hes playing with 8 or 9 players that are all comfortable on the ball, its his job to protect the defence win it back and give it simple but here at Liverpool he has 4 or 5 players that are worse than him technically and that affects his game too. I think you'd find if we really did improve as a team and had better players in there with him his game would step up a level too, it comes back to the basic fact that we have 4 or 5 players regularly in our first team that are poor players technically and that has a knock on effect on the others, i dont care if you have Messi or Ronaldinho in the side if you have Riise hoofing it towards you all the time your not going to be as effective. Those players that are really poor technically like Riise, Carra, Hyppia, Sissoko, Kuyt are dragging everyone else down with them.

Agree with that in Agger, Alonso and Torres we're missing our 3 best technical players from midfield, defence, and attack. But you compare Rafa with someone like Wenger and you have to believe they look for different things first and foremost in a player. Rafa always talks about how much running players do rather than how much they actually contributed to the team in creating or scoring goals. I know his style at Valencia relied on a very high tempo pressing game that needed very good fitness levels but those players were very good technically too, fitness in a professional footballer shouldnt be a problem but its hard to coach technique and a good first touch to a player thats been a pro for so many years without it improving. If you look at the signings of players like Agger,Alonso, Babel, Benayoun, Tores you have to believe the desire to play a better style of football is there because these are all excellent technical players, but we need to see them all playing in the same team together.

Agree it isnt just poor passing its losing it in tight situations due to a heavy touch or simply lack of confidence, dont want to keep harping back to Arsenal but there you had at least 9 of the 11 players that were comfortable taking the ball under pressure and happy to give it to a team mate that was marked cos they knew hed keep it, because theres faith in your team mates theres more movement off the ball because you dont expect to lose it. We have probably 4 or 5 regular 1st teamers that are simply poor technical players, they arent comfortable on the ball, have a poor touch and hoof it instead of passing it, theres then maybe 2 or 3 that are above average like Finnan, or Mascherano or Arbeloa not great but acceptable, then theres maybe 3 or 4 that have good technique. Rafa picks the team so i guess he has to shoulder some of the blame, he knows the strengths and weaknesses of the players if you have 4 or 5 poor passes in the team is it any surprise the passing is poor, if you have 4 or 5 with a poor touch is it any surprise things break down all the time and therefore the movement off the ball is poor. But we have the players here to play a better brand of football.

Im a big fan of Rafa (and still am) but im not going to pretend everythings rosy cos it obviously isnt. What bothers more than rotation is how poor some of our play is, when you compare us with Arsenal or Man Utd we're light years behind. Its hard to know where the blame lies for this, im sure the players arent coached not to move of the ball, im sure they're not told to hoof it long all the time, or mis control it. ultimately Rafa brought these players here and he selects them, but the players must take responsibility for their own performances too. My thoughts are we have too many poor technical players in the first 11 at the moment id count on average 5 of the 11 are poor passers with poor technical ability 1 or 2 are average or just better and maybe 3 or 4 are good technical players that are comfortable taking the ball in tight situations thats not enough. I dont care who you have playing for you, if you have Carra or Hyppia or Riise launching it regularly or players playing poor passes your not going to be able to play good football because there are too many weak links. I think if we want to see better football and better movment those players have to be moved on.

I think we have too many poor technical players in the team, too many players that are poor passes or struggle to keep it under pressure, you can get away with having maybe 2 or 3 of these players because they add other things that the team needs, but at the moment i reckon we have maybe 5 (Carra, Riise ,Hyppia, Mascherano? Kuyt) they start regularly but arent the best at keeping the ball thats 2 too many in my reckoning.

The one things thats disappointed me so much about the way we've played this season is our movement off the ball and how poorly we pass it. We need players that are comfortable in possession and comfortable receiving the ball in tight situations. The annoying thing is we have those players, but not enough of them play regularly. So who are the players that prevent us from playing a good passing game? Riise, Hyppia, Carragher, Sissoko, Kuyt id say these are the worst culprits in terms of hoofing it needlessly and giving it away either due to a poor touch or poor passing. Now im not saying these should never play they bring other attributes to the team that we need but when you start a game with 4 or 5 of these in the team its always going to be tough. But look at this possible team we could select, 8 or 9 of these are comfortable on the ball and good passers. .............................Reina............................ Finnan.........Carragher......Agger...............Arbeloa Gerrard...........Mascherano...Alonso.........Benayoun .......................Torres........Babel...................... Thats a team with players that are comfortable on the ball, you have good technical players plus the steel of Mascherano and Carragher in there too, in reserve we have Lucas, Veronin, Crouch? that are also pretty good technically. of course we havent been able to select some of these players for a while, but we have the personnel to play better football but we need them all to play together, having 4 or 5 poor passers in the team just isnt working.

The back 5 hasnt changed much at all this season injuries to key players has meant we havent been able to change as much, i dont think you can use the excuse that the players arent used to playing together. The fact is our key players arent playing well and we're missing 3 very key players in terms of playing good passing football. Think the basic problem is the players arent performing to a high enough level. You'd hope they arent being coached not to move off the ball and hoof it long all the time so the blame has to rest to a large degree with the players. You compare the way we've been playing with Arsenal and you wonder what the players are doing, if they arent comfortable taking a pass with men on them they shouldnt be playing for us. I think its time to get rid of the hard workers, or keep them to maybe 1 or 2 in the team like Mascherano and lets pick those players that are comfortable in posession and dont mind receiving the ball under pressure.

Mascherano has his limitations he'll never be a great attacking midfielder but there are lots of things about his game Stevie could learn from. You only have to check the MOM polls on here and you'll see for maybe 80% of the games hes played in he ranks in the top 3. I also think a number of our players could also learn a lot from his attitude, this is a guy thats played over 30 times for Argentina at only 23 years of age, he hasnt started every game for us this season, have you heard a bad word from him? Nothing, but whenever hes called upon hes there doing his job to the best of his ability, theres no sulking, no moaning in the press he just gets on with it, i wish a few of our other players had his attitude. Lets not forget hes only 23 and Fabregas who apparently isnt in Stevies league is only 20, im a huge fan of Gerrard but im not blinkered i dont think hes developed his game as well as he should have by now, hes 27 his physical attributes are awesome but that tactical awareness and football intelligence just doesnt seem to have improved.

Think this is a fair point, watching Stevie's game develop over the years i think hes become a player that tries to do too much too often. Hes always looking for that killer pass, the clip on youtube illustrated this well i think. Now i have no problem with him playing this way but if your part of a 2 man central midfield and a lot of the time your giving the ball away that can hurt you, also if your always looking for that assist pass it has to come off on a regular basis to justify playing that way. Its like Lampard having 15 shots a game, fine if one of them goes in but as we saw during the world cup as soon as you go 2 or 3 games without a goal people will be critical i think the same applies to Stevie, if he isnt scoring or creating regularly he should be criticised because thats why hes in the team. There is definitely something to the argument that when stevie plays especially through the middle too much of our game is reliant on him, i know it was only Derby and Sunderland but in both those game where he didnt play we attacked very well and there were big contributions from several players. I think the key is to get Gerrard producing as 1 of 4 or 5 attacking options so that noteverything goes through him. I think playing him wide right makes this easier to achieve.

Its Gerrard's job in the team to drive us forward, score and create goals, its Mascheranos job to protect the back 4 and give it simple, its Reina's job to stop shots and command the back 4 etc etc... Id say Gerrard is at the moment doing less well at his job than most others in the team, how many goals has he scored or created this season? We have to judge Gerrard on how many goals he scores and creates and how well he drives the team on because thats what hes in the team for. There were signs that he was hitting some form on Saturday lets hope that continues because going forward hes our most important player.

Hope your right on that one, but honestly having watched them both over the last 2 seasons i think Fabregas is a better all round player in that position, he influences his team on a more consistent basis, and i think hes got a better football brain, not to mention hes about 5 years younger. Hes added goals to his game this season too. Hope your right though and on Sunday he gets the better of him although i wouldnt be surprised to see Stevie wide right against Arsenal.