Sentencing

[Swan Red]

Who should we be sending to prison and why?

 

As KAMF pointed out it's come up a bit this so I'm wondering what people think the best arguments for sentencing people to prison are.

 

Here are a few of the most notable reasons offered for custodial sentencing.

 

Punishment, people who do wrong deserve punishment

Rehabilitation people who do wrong should be encouraged not to do wrong and be rehabilitated back into society prison provides a means to this

Incapacity people who are locked up can't do wrong against those people on the outside

Compensation the people who have wrong done against them should be given justice

Deterrence, locking people up deters others from doing wrong.

 

I'm interested in alternatives as I generally consider prison unwarranted but am interested in others thoughts.

[cymrococh]

Not to be an *rse, but as you say you consider prison unwarranted, can you provide viable alternatives?

[Nerik]

For me, it is the incapacity that is the main reason i.e. putting people behind bars who would otherwise be outside hurting people. For the other 4 reasons listed there are decent enough alternatives.

[kop205]

I've always considered rehabilitation potentially the most useful purpose of prison though in reality it often may have the opposite effect. Protection/incapacity clearly has its uses as well, though prison achieves this less well than the death penalty (at least with regard to that individual) which I've always been against.

 

Am going to be lazy and basically copy across my bit from the other thread if that is ok?

 

I think there is value in using vindication as an aim of punishment - ensuring that the law is not just upheld but is demonstrably seen to be upheld. I think from the point of view of the victim it is important for there to be some sort of recognition that they have been wronged. That does not necessarily require a harsh sentence or imprisonment (and the problem with something like compensation is that there are some losses which simply can't be repaid). In the case of that fella who shot the woman running away after breaking into his house, as I said I'd be happy with some sort of conditional discharge permanently revoking his gun licence (probably human rights issues there though given their constitution) and relating to his public pronouncements about the case.

 

Maybe vindication kind of aims at the same thing as deterrence but in a more subtle/indirect way - people are less likely to act in a particular way not because they are consciously aware of the punishment given to someone else who previously acted in that specific way, but because of a more subconscious/internalised awareness of what a society regards as acceptable.

 

I think there is a place for deterrence bit only really when limited to controlling certain kinds of habitual low-level 'anti-social' behaviours (fines for smoking on trains, that kind of stuff). Even then, the penalty doesn't need to be massively harsh to be effective - if there is one thing that managing classes has taught me it is that the certainty of punishment is far more important than the severity. If a kid knows for certain that they will be kept for the first 5 minutes of their break if they don't do their homework then they are far more likely to do it than if they think there is only a chance of the teacher carrying through on their threat of a half hour after school.

 

So prison as a deterrent for most crimes would be overkill.

 

Give us some case studies SR - ideally real ones so we have a bit of context.

Edited August 1, 2014 by kop205

[Swan Red]

Yeah there's a qualifier in generally but you aren't being an a***.

 

Community service something actually constructive, victim remuneration, and I'm not sure what else, I'm not taking anything off the table though, like would I prefer 5 years inside or 20 lashes? Probably 20 lashes but the lashes would also deter me more than the idea of prison and may give the victim a greater sense of retribution than me going to prison while costing significantly less.

 

And I'm not calling in favour of corporal punishment I just think we are often locking up the wrong people for the wrong things.

 

I'll build upon the OP but I'm pretty unsure of where I am so I'm taking the liberty of seeing what others think first, I will expand though and that post was one of the things that got me thinking Kop.

[Nerik]

I doubt lashes work much. I suffered corporal punishment at school. I always hated the detentions more than the corporal punishment.

[kop205]

What do you make of stuff like this SR?

 

Link

 

Man sentenced to carry 'I am a bully' sign condemns "unfair" punishment

 

 

An Ohio man ordered to spend five hours on a street corner with a sign declaring he is a bully has branded his sentence unfair, and said the judge who gave it to him has ruined his life.

Beautiful Patio Paving

 

The Northeast Ohio Media Group reports that 62-year-old Edmond Aviv for the most part ignored honking horns and people who stopped to talk to him in the town of South Euclid.

 

But Aviv was not happy with his punishment, saying: "The judge destroyed me," and "This isn't fair at all."

 

The judge ordered that the sign should read: "I AM A BULLY."

 

Aviv had pleaded no contest to a misdemeanour disorderly conduct charge after a neighbour said he had bullied her and her disabled children for the past 15 years.

 

A court probation officer monitored Aviv during his punishment.

[Rimbeux]

It's also a buy in for people to put their faith in the justice system and not seek their own retribution.

 

I'm not sure rehabilitation works as an aim, because often it's the adjustment from the institution to freedom that is the issue, rather than mainly the move from criminality to, for want of a better word, conformity.

 

I'm not sure we're advanced enough or enlightened enough as a whole to do without something like prison and still be largely peaceful.

[Gilps]

What do you make of stuff like this SR?

 

Link

 

From that report, I'm struggling to see anything that should be termed as criminal behaviour. That would be a far bigger concern than the punishment.

[kop205]

I doubt lashes work much. I suffered corporal punishment at school. I always hated the detentions more than the corporal punishment.

 

They obviously weren't hitting you hard enough!

 

My school got rid of corporal punishment (the 'strap') the year before I started in.

 

We had one psychotic little t*** of a teacher who had been renowned for using it - a lad a couple of years above me told the story of how on his first day in the school, he was greeted by the sight of said teacher waiting outside the front gates and proceeding to thrash some lad to whom he 'owed' it from the year before.

 

When they abolished it, he was finished - I was generally pretty good in school but I;d f*** around in his lessons more than most 'cos he was like superman without his cape. He went from being the most feared teacher in the school to a bit of a joke and left within a couple of years. He gave me loads of detentions but I wasn't arsed (other than my parents were always very clever at making me feel I'd really let them down by getting into trouble, which I suppose had).

 

From that report, I'm struggling to see anything that should be termed as criminal behaviour. That would be a far bigger concern than the punishment.

 

Bit more from the Guardian

 

Aviv has feuded with his neighbour Sandra Prugh for the past 15 years, court records show. The most recent case stemmed from Aviv being annoyed at the smell coming from Prugh's dryer vent when she did laundry, according to court records. In retaliation, Aviv hooked up kerosene to a fan, which blew the smell onto Pugh's property, the records said.

 

Prugh has two adult adopted children with developmental disabilities, cerebral palsy and epilepsy; a husband with dementia, and a paralysed son.

 

Prugh said in a letter to the court that Aviv had called her an ethnic slur while she was holding her adopted black children, spat on her several times, regularly threw dog faeces on her son's car windshield, and once smeared faeces on a wheelchair ramp

[Earl Hafler]

Who should we be sending to prison and why?

 

As KAMF pointed out it's come up a bit this so I'm wondering what people think the best arguments for sentencing people to prison are.

 

Here are a few of the most notable reasons offered for custodial sentencing.

 

Punishment, people who do wrong deserve punishment

Rehabilitation people who do wrong should be encouraged not to do wrong and be rehabilitated back into society prison provides a means to this

Incapacity people who are locked up can't do wrong against those people on the outside

Compensation the people who have wrong done against them should be given justice

Deterrence, locking people up deters others from doing wrong.

 

I'm interested in alternatives as I generally consider prison unwarranted but am interested in others thoughts.

 

 

What would your punishment be for those who are a danger to society ? Murderers, generally violent people etc etc

[kop205]

What would your punishment be for those who are a danger to society ? Murderers, generally violent people etc etc

 

Send them on a stag do with boohog.

[Swan Red]

What do you make of stuff like this SR?

 

Link

 

Yeah from the added reports that kind of stuff I think should be considered, I understand he considers it humiliating but a degree of humiliation may be appropriate and proportionate.

 

As for the violent offenders I'm more inclined to lock them up though I still think alternatives should be considered it's harder to think of them.

 

I doubt lashes work much. I suffered corporal punishment at school. I always hated the detentions more than the corporal punishment.

 

It'd depend on the lashes, I once told my headmaster, when he called me into his office to see if my hands had healed well enough from a previous caning to receive the one I was due for smoking, that it obviously wasn't working. Had I got the birch that may have been different.

 

One of the arguments against using corporal punishment is it's impact on the person carrying out the punishment, it's dehumanising to both parties, if it is less dehumanising to the convicted than prison and we can we justify that dehumanising of the person carrying it out if they do so voluntarily should we?

Edited August 1, 2014 by Swan Red

[D.Boon]

Lad in my class took the cane off the teacher snapped it in half and chucked it out the window.

 

Even at that tender age it was clear he had some issues with authority.

[Falconhoof]

Prison is generally a waste of money and time. I think you have to know a bit about what prison does and how it operates.

In most cases, because it's expensive to provide support, education, mentoring, analysis, therapy, training etc, prisoners simply get banged up for long periods.

It's cheaper to do that, and also it provides a response to crime that requires little thought. If you see the majority of offenders as bad people who need to be punished then you will be quite content with prisons as they are. I see a lot of offenders as people with personality disorders, people with a damaged outlook on life. They often have a s*** time growing up, not just deprived, but with adults either deliberately or unwittingly putting stresses and scars into their character. The problem is that locking people like that up is never going to help. They often need help, beyond regular appointments, they might need one to one support from a variety of people.

One of the main reasons why prison is used is because it's cheaper than the better alternatives.

There are institutions, which are simmilar to prison, where offenders are properly and professionally rehabilitated but they need lots of professionals to work with prisoners. There is a place like this called Grendon where my brother was apparently rehabilitated when I was a young kid. He probably would still be involved in violent crime to this day, or dead, but that place encouraged him to examine the roots of his behaviour.

I'd look online for a cost comparison between this kind of institution and a regular prison, but I am busy just now and I think it's safe to assume that it will be significantly more expensive to run, on a per prisoner/day basis, perhaps by a factor of ten.

I would prefer to look at the whole life cost of prisoners, with reoffending, policing, further prison etc, and I would wonder if a more therapeutic approach might be more cost effective in the long run.

But then, in my opinion even if it turned out to be more expensive to provide intensive support and rehabilitation that's what we should aim for because it's the right thing to do.

[kop205]

Good post Falconnhoof

[Earl Hafler]

Send them on a stag do with boohog.

 

But ask that he's left alone ? It's apparently the others who are a bit " vanilla ".

 

 

So what's the suggested punishment for murderers, repeated GBH offenders etc ?

[Falconhoof]

If you want 'punishment' then locking people up is as good as anything else.

[Swan Red]

Thanks Graham good post that. Which of the reasons given for sentencing, from the OP, do you think most important and why are the ones less important less important. I suspect we'll be fairly close

 

So what's the suggested punishment for murderers, repeated GBH offenders etc ?

 

I mentioned before for violent criminals it's going to be tougher to think of non custodial sentencing but I think we should, we should at least look to supplement them

[Falconhoof]

Thanks, I am aware that I haven't really answered some of your other points...

I think I've said a bit on rehabilitation, I consider it to be the most important and the thing that most leads to all of the others.

I'm not so good on punishment, compensation or deterrence taken on their own but I understand why they are the emotive parts of the crime and punishment debate.

I expect they feel more important from the point of view of the victim of crime, and those who feel aligned with protecting victims.

 

Punishment, people who do wrong deserve punishment

I struggle with this one because I don't think it works but it's a powerful argument because of how widely accepted it is. I think by punishing people you may be doing something else which opens doors for rehabilitation, like inflicting suffering is going to produce a response of some sort. In most cases it's going to harden the negative psychological response to stress which underpins a lot of offending, and that's my objection to it. It's going to be most likely a negative psychological response, but in a minority of cases I guess you will break the spirit of the offender and reduce his will to get out amongst society where he might otherwise be, but it's a crude mechanism.

 

Rehabilitation

It's my belief that when you do get rehabilitation, you get the best chance of reducing crime further down the road.

 

Incapacity people who are locked up can't do wrong against those people on the outside

This is true and I imagine it's a comfort to victims of violent crime, but the same could apply to rehabilitation if it is effective.

 

Compensation the people who have wrong done against them should be given justice

I'm not going to tell victims of crime how they should feel, and if prison feels like compensation then I would acknowledge that it's important. What I would say though is that victims aren't really offered any alternative. What if there was a possibility of rehabilitation, including the perpetrator having to write to or speak to vis victims to offer remorse. What if also, the victims could see examples where rehabilitation leads to positive outcomes and less reoffending. Perhaps they would appreciate that as more valuable compensation.

 

Deterrence, locking people up deters others from doing wrong.

Studies comprehensively debunk this.

[Swan Red]

Cheers, I didn't mean to suggest you needed to answer the points raised I'm just interested given the thought you've clearly put into it.

 

I'm similar on all points and while I'm about to get out the door will be back to this.

[Falconhoof]

Cheers, I didn't mean to suggest you needed to answer the points raised I'm just interested given the thought you've clearly put into it.

 

I'm similar on all points and while I'm about to get out the door will be back to this.

 

Oh yeah no worries, I didn't mean it sound like that.

[kop205]

 

 

Punishment, people who do wrong deserve punishment

I struggle with this one because I don't think it works

 

I don't think it is meant to 'work' as such is it? In that it isn't a means to an end but an end in itself. Other than that it overlaps with taking account of the victim and acknowledging the wrong done to them. As I've said I think there is a place for that but it doesn't mean 'eye for an eye'. Withing reason, it is enough that people are punished and that society expresses its rejection of certain behaviours - the actual severity of the punishment is less important in my opinion. Repulsed as I'm sure we all were by Rolf Harris, I don't get how loads of people with presumably no connection to the case were appealing for a stiffer sentence

 

Compensation the people who have wrong done against them should be given justice

I'm not going to tell victims of crime how they should feel, and if prison feels like compensation then I would acknowledge that it's important. What I would say though is that victims aren't really offered any alternative. What if there was a possibility of rehabilitation, including the perpetrator having to write to or speak to vis victims to offer remorse. What if also, the victims could see examples where rehabilitation leads to positive outcomes and less reoffending. Perhaps they would appreciate that as more valuable compensation.

 

There are some restorative justice programmes running for mostly young offenders I think that involve meetings between victim and perpetrator. No idea on their efficacy in terms of reducing re-offending but I like the principle.

 

[Earl Hafler]

Thanks Graham good post that. Which of the reasons given for sentencing, from the OP, do you think most important and why are the ones less important less important. I suspect we'll be fairly close

 

 

 

I mentioned before for violent criminals it's going to be tougher to think of non custodial sentencing but I think we should, we should at least look to supplement them

 

I think the answer - or at least my answer - is to keep prisons for violent criminals but reduce the amount of custodial sentences for lesser crimes or those we should be looking to rehabilitate.

As you say, there are people in prison being dehumanised. If you look at the shocking events in the health care system in recent years, the prisons are possibly worse and such an environment debilitates, which is the opposite of what should be happening.

 

We'll never get it right for everyone but the current system isn't working.

 

 

Was a good post Falconhoof

Edited August 1, 2014 by Earl Hafler

[Nerik]

Yeah from the added reports that kind of stuff I think should be considered, I understand he considers it humiliating but a degree of humiliation may be appropriate and proportionate.

 

As for the violent offenders I'm more inclined to lock them up though I still think alternatives should be considered it's harder to think of them.

 

 

 

It'd depend on the lashes, I once told my headmaster, when he called me into his office to see if my hands had healed well enough from a previous caning to receive the one I was due for smoking, that it obviously wasn't working. Had I got the birch that may have been different.

 

One of the arguments against using corporal punishment is it's impact on the person carrying out the punishment, it's dehumanising to both parties, if it is less dehumanising to the convicted than prison and we can we justify that dehumanising of the person carrying it out if they do so voluntarily should we?

 

The school I went to got rid of corporal punishment in 1989. I went through it for 9yrs from Prep 1 to Form 3. First time I got caned was aged 6 for throwing a rock during break. I lost count of the amount of canings in Prep school. It got worse in senior school. We'd be hit with something that looked like a horse-whip and another contraption called the "fish" which was a fish-shaped leather thing that would be used to whack you on your open hand which would be facing upwards. We'd also get our hair pulled (top, sideburns etc.), be made to kneel on our hands etc. You name it, we got it. It hurt and we were afraid of the corporal punishment, but it would be over within seconds and the pain after a few minutes. Way better than having to go home and tell my parents that I had to go to school on a Saturday from 10am-4pm or stay until 6pm following a school day.

 

I doubt I ever learnt a lesson through corporal punishment to be honest.