RBS opinion poll

[Molby]

I tried to set up an opinion poll about this and although I amazed myself by getting to grips with the technology, my questions were too long and vague, so I scrapped it and thought maybe we could gauge people's opinions about a different kind of pressure, specifically against RBS - not G and H

 

I have been on at this for a while and I know several people agree but would be keen to have a debate, just about this rather than the general takeover speculation, if that's okay

 

 

 

 

AN OPINION - So we launch a campaign against RBS, they call the loans in, Hicks and Gillet default on them, we're in administration. How does that help?

 

Surely it's better to have a measured sale process where (and this is where I'm unclear if this is the case) RBS effectively tell them the price they've got to sell at?

 

 

 

A DIFFERENT OPINION - 'calling in the loans' is open to interpretation

 

a measured sale process? that's effectively what is happening now but what it actually consists of is RBS saying they want repaying, appointing puppet figures to ensure this happens, when in reality they are hamstrung by G and H's ridiculous demands and continuing to milk us dry

 

if they actually set a deadline (and it was soon, and preferably at a time when the transfer window is closed) then G and H MUST sell at a resonable price, much lower than £350m in fact, or they lose everything

it's a painful and nerve-jangling scenario but one we may have to endure

 

 

 

 

what do people think and what ideas about an RBS campaign?

 

my opinion is that it's much much easier to organise and far more effective than an anti G and H campaign

 

reputational risk will count a lot here, but only if it's real, all out concerted pressure

[Epic Swindle]

There's now way we'll sell the club under this lot, it's a sham. I'm all for administration if it means a clean slate and savvy owner with the best interests of the club at heart. They don't need massive personal wealth, the lack of interest payments alone will mean plenty of spare cash for team building. The foundations are already there and have been for a long time.

[Gomez]

Ideally they call the loans in on Kop Holdings and Kop Holding's assets (ie, LFC) are sold off, therefore we don't get the points penalty

 

(I know Southampton did, but the PL said their holding company was shell set up to avoid the points deduction and something about not being a viable business - as we clearly are a viable business as we can afford to pay of the horrendous repayments Kop Holdings owe we should be OK)

[impware]

You just have to look to the States to see how Hicks can drag things out to screw every last dime out. The Dallas News article from earlier today contained a quote that despite Hick's 'prepackaged' bankruptcy ploy:

 

"What they did is going to cause a nuclear war here," said a person close to the creditor group. "Chuck Greenberg and Nolan Ryan will have control of the team by the trade deadline. But it will be the trade deadline of 2020."

 

Get him out asap, if it takes administration so be it. It's easy for RBS to sit back and coin in the interest payments to the detriment of our club. Having a go at RBS and bringing them bad publicity may just bring a change - but protesting at Hicks is a waste of time.

[Rory Fitzgerald]

RBS appear to be exerting as much pressure as they can.

 

The loan was set up as a bridge loan for 18 months during the boom times and now they are stuck with it as the 18month period straddled the changing economic times.

 

Last year RBS extended it for 1 more year though at a hefty margin and upfront fee because they are stuck with it and an undertaking to reduce the debt

by GBP 100mln - most likely by way of minor investor buying in.

 

Now they allowing an extension as it would appear the only real option is a full sale and Broughton on board has given some comfort that there will be a real push to get the sale moving.

 

I think RBS have cranked up the pressure over time so I have no doubt that as time moves on and things show no material sign of improving that they

will continue to turn the screw on G&H.

[impware]

RBS are turning the screw on us though, the club are paying the interest, not H&G. While that continues Hicks can play a waiting game as long as he likes for a mad offer that will never arrive. It's not costing him a penny.

[Rory Fitzgerald]

RBS are turning the screw on us though, the club are paying the interest, not H&G. While that continues Hicks can play a waiting game as long as he likes for a mad offer that will never arrive. It's not costing him a penny.

 

But it has, no investment last year has contributed to no CL football this year. Any investor coming in bases his decision largely something called the 'net present value of future cashflows' and if future cashflows have a question mark over them given reduced earnings from CL then the price offered will be lower.

[Bogman]

No idea, just something.

 

Something needs to be done, and now.

 

Not very helpful but too disgusted to think laterally atm.

[impware]

But it has, no investment last year has contributed to no CL football this year. Any investor coming in bases his decision largely something called the 'net present value of future cashflows' and if future cashflows have a question mark over them given reduced earnings from CL then the price offered will be lower.

 

But that's got little to do with his game plan. He's never banked on success, but the loyalty to the brand. Midtable is fine for him as the club can carry on paying the interest and he can sit and wait for as long as he wants for a silly offer.

 

His valuation of the club has always been based on it's long term potential, he even includes the potential revenue generated by the unbuilt stadium! He will try and sell the club on it's potential to fill an imaginary stadium and it's potential to earn silly money from imagined future tv and internet contracts 10 years down the line, not on whether we're in next year's CL.

 

If it all goes horribly wrong he can still walk away without having lost a cent, so he's not got any reason to sell quickly or cheaply.

[sutty]

The government own RBS or a massive stake at least.

[johngibo YPC]

I'd be willing to do anything really

But is there a danger that if RBS get fed up they could sell the debt to someone else? Who may have even less favourable terms?

I'm no financial expert like

[Molby]

The government own RBS or a massive stake at least.

 

 

which is what my idea is all about really

 

there would be reputational risk involved for any bank but especially in this situation and also 'cos of the appalling reputation they have landed themselves with over the buy to let stuff - won't need more aggro

 

another thing: maybe if we start this, someone could plant the idea in the minds of Cameron's advisors that if the govt push RBS in order to save Liverpool, the tories approval ratings in Liverpool will soar

 

 

imagine that - could get 1000s of extra votes on Merseyside over this...oh the irony

 

I'd be willing to do anything really

But is there a danger that if RBS get fed up they could sell the debt to someone else? Who may have even less favourable terms?

I'm no financial expert like

 

 

that's a point of view

 

But I'd say that if the potential damage to their reputation was bad enough to make them call in the loan then they would be loathe to change tack and just sell the debt

 

also, can't see there being much market for it

 

thinking on, good thing we don't live at Masons anymore

 

it's right by the main RBS branch of Liverpool....we'd get the job of daubing the hate slogans in red paint, with it being on our doorstep

Edited May 26, 2010 by Molby

[johngibo YPC]

But that's got little to do with his game plan. He's never banked on success, but the loyalty to the brand. Midtable is fine for him as the club can carry on paying the interest and he can sit and wait for as long as he wants for a silly offer.

 

His valuation of the club has always been based on it's long term potential, he even includes the potential revenue generated by the unbuilt stadium! He will try and sell the club on it's potential to fill an imaginary stadium and it's potential to earn silly money from imagined future tv and internet contracts 10 years down the line, not on whether we're in next year's CL.

 

If it all goes horribly wrong he can still walk away without having lost a cent, so he's not got any reason to sell quickly or cheaply.

 

We'll be struggling to finish midtable soon. Why would the silly offers be rolling in then?

People are stopping going to games already you know

[sutty]

which is what my idea is all about really

 

there would be reputational risk involved for any bank but especially in this situation and also 'cos of the appalling reputation they have landed themselves with over the buy to let stuff - won't need more aggro

 

another thing: maybe if we start this, someone could plant the idea in the minds of Cameron's advisors that if the govt push RBS in order to save Liverpool, the tories approval ratings in Liverpool will soar

 

 

imagine that - could get 1000s of extra votes on Merseyside over this...oh the irony

 

 

Was thinking that negative publicity wouldn't carry much significance for RBS, ditto the whole fit and proper owner thing being an angle that could be pursued but perhaps there is political pressure that could be brought in to try to speed things along.

 

My concern is that RBS are on the make massively from this so whilst they are comfortable in their ability to get their money back they won't apply the pressure we desperately need to force the owners hand.

 

I dunno. It's probably doomed to failure but it could be worth a go.

 

We'll be struggling to finish midtable soon. Why would the silly offers be rolling in then?

People are stopping going to games already you know

On the stopping going thing....

 

I can't remember when I've felt more out of love with this football club. And it's all down to them.

[johngibo YPC]

 

On the stopping going thing....

 

I can't remember when I've felt more out of love with this football club. And it's all down to them.

 

I haven't met anyone willing to give up a season ticket quite yet, but much of that might be how hard it is to get one back

But match by match fans are defo going down. I struggled to GIVE away tickets towards the end of last season and every game i got countless text off people trying to shift spares

I can't see our global appeal holding up for much longer either

Edited May 26, 2010 by johngibo YPC

[Sir Tokyo Sexwale]

I hear you, Sutty.

 

I've been worrying that I sound/feel like a gloryhunter - referencing teams like Rotherham; their fans still go, but it's not just a s*** season, it's the whole f***ing thing. We're at a massive intersection now; it could well be that in 10 years, G&H took one of the great footballing institutions & turned it into also-rans.

 

We can still remain one of the big boys, but the door's closing fast and soon we'll be too far off the pace

[johngibo YPC]

I hear you, Sutty.

 

I've been worrying that I sound/feel like a gloryhunter - referencing teams like Rotherham; their fans still go, but it's not just a s*** season, it's the whole f***ing thing. We're at a massive intersection now; it could well be that in 10 years, G&H took one of the great footballing institutions & turned it into also-rans.

 

 

Its depressing. You go and watch depressed players. Everyone sits round depressed. And noone (apart from the 'get Mourinho' lunatics) can see a way out of it. We can't spend any money on our squad. We can't afford to sack the manager. And there is no sign of a sale. Its only going to get worse. You try and get some faint hope that the players will galvanise each other and do something incredible but they are all as depressed as we are. You look to the bench to try and change a game and its full of kids

Its no fun whatsoever. Its not about being a glory hunter. Its about wanting to be a football fan. And football is all about hope. 'There's always next year'. Well there isn't. Not anymore. Thats what they have done. They've taken away the hope

Edited May 26, 2010 by johngibo YPC

[sutty]

Its depressing. You go and watch depressed players. Everyone sits round depressed. And noone (apart from the 'get Mourinho' lunatics) can see a way out of it. We can't spend any money on our squad. We can't afford to sack the manager. And there is no sign of a sale. Its only going to get worse. You try and get some faint hope that the players will galvanise each other and do something incredible but they are all as depressed as we are. You look to the bench to try and change a game and its full of kids

Its no fun whatsoever. Its not about being a glory hunter. Its about wanting to be a football fan. And football is all about hope. 'There's always next year'. Well there isn't. Not anymore. Thats what they have done. They've taken away the hope

 

Yep. And it's all over the field. That's what makes it disgusting

 

I've said this before but in some ways I have sympathy for them inside the ground who don't want to get involved in the protests. They go to watch the match. I never used to start talking about custodianship or leveraging or debt repayments. I talked about f***ing football. You're right, the hope and the joy has been sucked out. It's no coincidence that the only really big performances are in the games when you can lose yourself in the football. Everton. United. It's been mostly tragically joyless.

 

What makes it worse is the juxtaposition of this season to last...

Edited May 26, 2010 by sutty

[johngibo YPC]

Even Spurs at home depressed me a bit

Everyone raved about the performance, but it felt like a little club out battling a big club.

Yeah it was something at least, but going mad at tackles and that. It was dead....Everton

And we only beat f***ing Spurs

[sutty]

Even Spurs at home depressed me a bit

Everyone raved about the performance, but it felt like a little club out battling a big club.

Yeah it was something at least, but going mad at tackles and that. It was dead....Everton

And we only beat f***ing Spurs

Aye, who've beaten us once in about 1000 years at Anfield.

 

Was a decent performance though.

[johngibo YPC]

Aye, who've beaten us once in about 1000 years at Anfield.

 

Was a decent performance though.

 

It was an Everton performance. We didn't put a decent move together

I bet Knox loved it

[sutty]

It was an Everton performance. We didn't put a decent move together

I bet Knox loved it

If you can't be good, be everton

[johngibo YPC]

If you can't be good, be everton

 

Well yes, i'm not saying it wasn't welcome

It was just depressingly welcome

The highlights of our season were essentially bossing Spurs and Man U at home

I suppose Everton was funny as well. Just for how they bottle it

[Epic Swindle]

Going off topic here but I thought we were going to kick on from that Spurs game, and there seemed to be a air of inevitability about finishing 4th, but as at other stages of the season we followed it up with more inconsistency. Horrific season in just about every way.

[johngibo YPC]

Going off topic here but I thought we were going to kick on from that Spurs game, and there seemed to be a air of inevitability about finishing 4th, but as at other stages of the season we followed it up with more inconsistency. Horrific season in just about every way.

 

I was convinced Villa away was the season turner. Before and after the game

Then we went to Reading...