timbos goals

Anyroad, as I was saying. Flight and me are 100% right about all this transfer malarkey and everyone who disagrees is 100% wrong and a complete bar steward. OK?

Mikey - let's call it a day eh. We're lowering the tone of a decent forum.

What the feck are you on about? Do you actually know how long it is since I had sex? You must be pig sick about what's happened this past week. One of the best weeks, performance-wise and results-wise, in the history of this club and there's you biting the edge of the table because you can't enjoy it because the man who's overseen it is your feckin nemesis. I see Benitez for what he is. I see his strengths. I see his faults. What I detest is fellas like you lapping up anti-Benitez drivel that has no veracity simply because it serves your purpose of undermining the man. His net spend per year is less than £20 million. Fact. Not the £40 million or whatever it is that huge chunks of the media try to spin. Fact. He's taking on Real Madrid and United and Chelsea with around half the resources they've got. Fact. That's all there is to why I've tried to support what Flight has tried to say. Now why don't you try asking yourself why it is those facts don't sit comfortably with you. Could it be you've lost the effigy of Benitez in which you stick pins while you're pulling the head off it.

I guess there's quite a few who might agree with you on the term 'pompous'. [Personally, as it happens, I'd say there's far more pomposity in your response ] But drivel ? No chance mate. The points Tomkins makes regarding Benitez's net spend are absolutely spot on. To the feckin letter. You may not like them but that doesn't alter the facts one feckin iota. Sorry if that irks you.

Not sure if this has been posted anywhere else. Tickled me anyroad. MANCHESTER United used text messages to inform fleeing supporters of Saturday's defeat by Liverpool as thousands left Old Trafford early and caught the train back to London. It is the first time the club has used its new £20 a month subscription service which also includes a selection of talking points, a football 'word of the day' and the names of key players from both teams. Julian Cook, a season ticket holder from Primrose Hill, said: "How ghastly. Does that mean that Liverpool win the big cup? Or is it just the league thingy? "As long as it wasn't the big European thingymeebob because I've arranged to meet up with some friends in Rome in May and do a bit of shopping." As the final whistle blew on Saturday only three United fans remained in the ground after their wheelchair helpers gave up and headed to the car park. Liverpoool manager Rafa Benitez said: "At first I theenk Fergie do this deliberate as some kind of spooky mind game in latest attempt to drive me insane. Skwaad" "But then I realise that United fans are very busy peoples with Blackberry gadget things who not have time to see their team lose. Skwaad" Meanwhile Man Utd manager Sir Alex Ferguson was banned from giving post-match television interviews after producers decided that the rapidly changing colours of his incandesecent nose might trigger thousands of epileptic fits. Speaking off-camera he said: "I felt we were better than Liverpool, although the score doesn't reflect that. By the way did ye know that Ho Chi Minh City is just outside of Knutsford, although the Ordnance Survey map doesn't reflect that."

I think the second part of this latest piece from Paul Tomkins highlights the frustrations felt by many of us for the continued misinterpretations - either inadvertant or deliberate - of Benitez's activities in the transfer market. The only insertion I would make is to the paragraph where he cites "United fans and myopic media mouthpieces" which should also include the words "anti-Benitez Reds". Again I'd stress I am certainly not bowing at the feet of Benitez, I'm just calling for any criticism to be based on fact not misrepresentation. http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N...090316-1001.htm

There's fellas sit 5/6 rows behind us. They never pass up the chance to slag off the likes of Kuyt or Lucas if they even look as if they're ready to make a mistake. One in particular I've had more than a few run-ins with. He was the same with Morientes. I think they see it as their right to have a go. Nothing anyone says seems to dissuade them from hounding their pet boo boy and, unfortunately, we have to admit that whilst he's not a bad player and has played reasonably well on the whole Lucas did unfortunately open the door for them with his tackling blips. I seem to recall the Echo reports giving Lucas a real going over a month or so ago. Im sure that didn't help matters.

Yeah good points Anny. I think it's something to do with the intelligence of [most of] the Spanish players that have come. Forinstance Alonso's feelings for the club and city would seem not much different from thiose of Torres. There is though something really uplifting in the way Torres takes every opportunity to underline how much he loves the club and being here. Ooooh tingle.

If the cap fits...

The more I reflect on all this the less I see the need for any debate. Yet some folk seem determined to respond as if there is a debate. The fact is the underlying reality of Benitez's performance in virtually re-stocking the entire club top to bottom over 4/5 years with new players has been significantly and mischievously distorted in order to discredit the guy's performance and capability as a manager. That's not to say he's not made c**k ups in the market. But the prevailing trend of Benitez's reign is one of pretty reasonable transfer market success - at times startling, occasionally shrewd, at other times so so and at other times oh no. It's all been done with an annual net expenditure significantly below what he really needed to achieve his - and our - aims. I think the Keane/Barry fiasco in the summer demonstrated the trend better than anything. Basically because the Americans were not prepared or couldn't afford to stump up a further 18 million, Benitez was faced with either forcing through the Alonso sale to provide most of the finance for Barry or calling the deal off. It would seem Juve backed out of an Alonso deal and the Barry deal was thus dead in the water. Of course, Bemitez's signing of Dossena has muddied the water somewhat as it clearly falls into the oh feck no transfer category. Perhaps though if Dossena had not been signed and the extra money had been forthcoming for Barry, then Barry's versatility might well have promptly swayed Benitez towards the belief that Aurelio and Insua backed up by Barry's capability of filling in at left back in an emergency was enough for that flank defensively. Just imagine how this season might have panned out with Barry here instead of Dossena alongside the rest of our quite amazing midfield, slotting in at left back/left wing back when required. Since he arrived this sort of juggling with the finances has seen benitez repeatedly either having to sell or waiting for pre-qualification ties to be despatched before buying. Now neither Flight nor myself are saying for one minute that that's not the financial reality the club has been faced with but to read the constant drip-feed from all branches of the media and the phone ins etc the impression is of a manager with money to burn who has in a lot of cases done just that [feckin burnt it on dross] when for the most part the opposite has been the case. That's all that's being said - so where's the feckin debate?

Look - stop nitpicking will yer - just because he's got Billy Meredith and Albert Quixall on the poxy list doesn't alter the principle that Fergie's a a complete and utter twwwat

Didn't realize til now this was the active thread. Must get more with it. Reading through there's some well considered comments - especially the votes for Harry Catterick as our next manager. I'm all for anyone who likes to take a good kicking now and again. Anyroad, as regards the Rafa comments. They seem to be the most informative and least cryptic of any we've heard from him for some time. It's tempting to wonder whether they're a sign that some small degree of sanity has returned to the club heirarchy and he's been re-assured as to his future. The only thing I'd add to what's been said is a degree of temperance as to Rafa's qualities. There's no doubt IMHO that he's the person we need to manage us for some time to come. There's also no doubt that what he's achieved given the adversity he's faced both from within and without is to be admired. That said, we cannot and should not be blind to his shortcomings. Whilst there is a sizeable chunk of our fan base - and media - who don't seem to be able to see the woods for the trees in respect of the overall quality of the offer that Rafa brings to the table, there are areas of their concern that should concern us all. The fact is he does have traits that are worrying. Leaving aside any of our misgivings concerning his tactics and selections - as no manager ever gets those right week in week out in the eyes of his club's fan base and the media. But that still leaves his apparent bent for political machinations and the apparent ease with which he seems to be able to drop like a stone colleagues and players alike who cross him. Then there's the constant looming courtship with Real Madrid. Of course, what we as outsiders looking in don't know is whether the manager has been justified in most if not all of the manouevring that seems to go hand in hand with these traits. My hope is that all of it has represented merely the opening ploys in his bid to wrest control of the club for the good of the club - as distinct from the good of Rafa. My own instinct tells me this is the case. And perhaps in any event the two are so closely entwined that it would long term make little appreciable difference. I guess the bottom line is if we managed tomorrow to t*** them despicable bassteds down the East lancs there would scarcely be a red who wouldn't be prepared to sign away their life to the little chubby bearded wonder from Madrid.

A good point Flight. And not just the fans. The likes of Ronnie Whelan it seems and Aldo and Ray Houghton [irish link - the Keane demise???] also seem to have lost - or chosen to blank out - any longer term perspective in favour of peddling easy shots.

I saw that too. I felt Dillon's clear unease at the slightly sympathetic stance of the others - which actually made him twitch and wriggle quite disconcertingly in his chair [in fact at one point he looked set to spontaneously combust with inner turmoil - pity he didn't] - spoke volumes about the entrenched agendas that do exist. As you say the others on the show appeared to be quite understanding of Rafa. How much of that was a case of uniting behind the English premier league flag for the forthcoming European games I'm not sure. I think you'll agree there was also a certain level of patronising evident too. Still, gratitude, small mercies huh?

Agreed. Definitely a touch of the Sartres there Rimbeux

Reflecting on it all I guess some of us just bristle a bit more than others at the distortions that abound in the media and elsewhere. Some like Rimbeux seem to be able to very easily shrug off the undermining by huge chunks of the media/anti-Rafa reds and philosophise the way forward with a 'what's the best way to move on' approach. I've certainly no truck with that as personally I've always very much been a 'lets get on with it' sort of person. However, I feel the witchhunt on Benitez is so entrenched amongst so many folk that Flight's desire to set the record straight on the transfer front is perfectly understandable - and I'd say justifiable. You've only got to read Realtarragona's 'ostrich-like' refusal to agree about the undoubted anti-Rafa agenda to see just one reason why that's the case. That said I'd reiterate that I'm no Rafa apologist. At times, his frustrating media gobbledegook and some of his tactics/selections/political machinations drive me as nuts as any anti-Rafa red or pundit. What I can see when I've calmed down, however, is a man who despite his short term shortcomings likely possesses the sort of long term footballing management qualities that don't come along that often and at the very least warrants a fairer hearing than he seems to be getting from some of those Reds that clearly can't abide the man and his regime.

Now you really are taking the michael.

I don't think anybody's saying that our transfer record is perfect. I'm certainly not saying that - Robbiert O'Keane anyone? Or that it cannot be improved upon - very probably by ensuring quality as distinct from quantity. What gets on my titts is the attempt to distort the figures - and then deliberately misrepresent the situation so that it makes Benitez's transfer record appear significantly worse than it is so that it can be used as yet another stick with which to beat him. If you've read any media outlets etc etc this past year or so - not just this most recent abomination of the facts - then you will not have been able to miss the host of reports/phone ins etc that have cited how Rafa has a] been backed to the hilt by the owners and b] has been less than prudent in the transfer market. The 16 million per annum net spend reveals a] to be untrue and whilst with regard to b] he has not exactly been an entirely rip-roaring success he has certainly purchased more than his fair share of rip-roaring successes and managed not to lose that much and in some cases make a killing on his not so successful purchases. the bottom line is we can discuss the semantics all night long - no chance - but by break of dawn the fact remains that considering the task he faced of overhauling the entire club when he took over one thing benitez cannot be faulted badly on is his transfer record across the board.

I know we're not supposed to insult each other on here but you really do take the feckin biscuit pal. Re-read Flight's posts then my own hamfisted efforts [particularly the bit pointing out that the person compiling the tables actually went to the trouble of producing the table so it coincided with the date of Rafa's arrival, distorting its content to exaggerate Rafa's net spend and highlighting in its preface that his table coincided with Rafa's arrival] - digest what it all says - and then come back and tell me there's no agenda to discredit the manager.

In essence. The argument of those wishing to discredit Benitez is that he has spent slightly more than Ferguson since his arrival at Anfield and yet Fergie has manifestly achieved far more success despite his marginally lesser budget. The counter argument is that the reality is that such a notion is not only incorrect but patently unfair as apples are not being compared with apples. A look at the respective current squad costs - with Fergies substantially more expensive than Benitez's - is all that is needed to dispel any notion of financial parity between the two managers. Flight's info regarding the significant wage disparities between the top four with us way below the other three by some 16 million per annum. the counter argument also carries the rider that any so called red spouting this garbage of parity of expenditure in the transfer market has to be by definition a complete feckin &*%$hole.

They had an agenda in my eyes as soon as it became patently clear that even to the least discerning brains they had an agenda to undermine the manager of our football club by distorting reality. I'm no Rafa apologist. I see his flaws as well as his undoubted strengths. However, the likes of tables like the one that was prefaced :- The table below represents the clubs net spend per season from the beginning of season 04/05 to date. This was the season that Raphael Benitez became Liverpool manager. ...are clearly designed to unfairly discredit the man. In this instance by making it appear that Fergie has actually spent less than Benitez yet has somehow couragously managed to achieve far far more on his relatively [to Rafa's] slimline transfer budget. Any Red worth his salt knows it to be utter contemptuous bllocks.. As for the the likes of yourself - posting innuendos to similar misleading effect that that sort of crap is true - well for me it's arguably worse than the lowlife who went to the trouble of producing those tables. At least they don't pretend to be Reds of the LFC persuasion. The enemy within. By all means criticise Benitez for his shortcomings. But you infer that complete nonsense records contribute to those shortcomings and it just shows you up for what you are. Or aren't.

You talkin' to me ???

I've heard the ghost of Bruno still haunts the lavatories. Possibly just a vicious rumour though

You not think this site might possibly have been the one with the pre-determined agenda to try and prove black was white? Or more pertinently that dear old Lord Alex F was set fair for winning a quintuple despite hardly spending a bean in comparison to nasty ole dago Rafa who has squandered more money than the RBOS and Barclays combined. Contemptible manipulating to create a myth as the earlier table revealed. You only have to look at the most expensive player cost [Tevez included as he's still there and the figure is what they'll be paying] in each club's squads to realise just how much the table is attempting to distort the reality of what each manager has forked out to create their respective squads. MUFC Rooney - 30 Ferdinand - 30 Berbatov - 30 Tevez - 30 Hargreaves - 18 Nani - 18 Anderson - 18 etc etc LFC Nando - 20 Masch - 17 Babel - 11 etc etc If you doubt their agenda then read their words in the preface to their second table The table below represents the clubs net spend per season from the beginning of season 04/05 to date. This was the season that Rapha Benitez became Liverpool manager. Incidentally - Agreed that "abysmal" was a poor choice of word. The gist of what I was getting at was that for a club qualifying year on year for the Champions League and doing not half bad in that competition year on year, the 18 million amounted to not that much more than half of the profit made from those Champions League qualifications. Choose yer own adjective to encapsulate more precisely what that constitutes.

I think a lot of nerve ends have been exposed with all the dropped points since Xmas time. Aldo's as much as anybody's. Not pretty.