Rory Fitzgerald

Really ? I am going off the angle from the main stand that looks across the pitch and at the backside of McBurnie. Thats the only one I have seen. Can you show the other one Hass ?

There is enough of McBurnie's foot touching the line as there was of that ball touching the goal line before John Stones cleared it in the 2-1 game at the Etihad. I don't think we can say it wasn't touching the line. He did also catch him on a follow through with the trailing leg - which I think is fine but causes McBurnie to scream with Mike Dean then blowing. Fabinho clearly makes contact with the ball but VAR can't clearly show his studs are not on McBurnie's foot when that contact is made with the ball. Thats the bit that intrigues me - there is no video footage to show Fabinho's studs on McBurnie's foot. If the only footage shows the ball being won but only guess work on the contact then is that enough to say foul. I would say "no" - VAR is saying - "ref says its a foul and I cant say Fabinho's studs dont hit the foot before the ball, so I stick with the ref". The refs call shifts the burden/threshold.

Yeah, loads of slide tackles that catch the leg first with momentum carrying through to knock the ball away. VAR seemed* to be looking at the replay from the Main Stand camara alot from behind McBurnie to see the location of the foot - but that that camara completely blind-sides the viewer to the impact of Fabinho's foot. *I cant be 100% sure on that but from memory, alot seemed to be from behind McBurnie

I think there was doubt on Mike Dean's side and if it was clearly inside the box, I don't think he wouldn't be confident enough to give a penalty.

Yeah, I didnt budge for the Firmino goal and was listening to the commentator to say if VAR was reviewing. However, I bloody celebrated Salah's goal. What a piece of skill that was, I was still nervous of offside but the touch and finish meant I couldnt not celebrate.

At the time, I was concerned on the 1st replay. A very small part of his foot is touching the line so - if it was a foul then it was a penalty, that was my worry. I've since come the conclusion that the initial decision could have been made more based on sound than vision (potential blocked view and scream of McBurnie), and that TV pictures don't conclusively show Fabinho kicking the ball 1st without standing on the top of McBurnie's foot. For the foul, the ref does not have a great view of it as there is a player blocking his view. Also, he waits momentarily and in that moment there is a scream from McBurnie, he then blows when the shot is blocked. To give a foul, I think he must have come to one of two conclusions; McBurnie layed it off and Fabinho kicked his foot, or Fabinho came over the top of McBurnie's foot, like a 'stamp' and kicked it that way From the replays, VAR could rule out #1 but #2 was a judgement call and stuck with the ref. Thereafter, they focused on the line and inside/outside call. I think the thought process of VAR was almost like Van Dijk last week, there was such a focus on where the line/foot was, that they overlooked another key incident. If that happens well inside the box and the ref points for a penalty, they would look purely at the tackle and tell the ref that Fabinho clearly kicks the ball, the follow through catches McBurnie (which is ok as it wasnt excessive), but they cant tell if Fabinho kicked/stood-on the strikers foot at the moment of kicking the ball. The conclusion I come to from the pictures is that "If I cant see it, I cant give it" - the VAR seems to come to the conclusion "If I cant see it, it doesnt mean it didnt happen, so I trust the referee" It comes back to the ref making the initial call - with not a perfect view (and after a few seconds) - and VAR trusting the call and limiting their judgement to the exact place of the offence.

Yeah, think we had a 4 games, definitely Watford and Wolves at home, think Everton and Bournmouth too.

I think it was last December. Klopp played a fair bit of 4231 last December and the December before that, like he needed to give Shaqiri games but couldnt trust him in a 433 maybe.

Mane, Salah, Firmino, Henderson all getting 45mins suggests all 4 start this. Options either side of Henderson are Jones, Wijnaldum, Keita, Milner. Other option is 4231 which puts Salah central, Firmino at 10 and Jota/Shaqiri at RM. Interesting to see Shaqiri, Jones, Minamino all get minutes - some could be in for a start next week in the CL.

Here’s the early incident - not a great start given it was well shielded for him to pick up

Who have we got for tomorrow, Henderson, Naby, Milner, Gini, Jones ? Matip out Fabinho at CB.

I threw that one out there to see what it looks like given (i) Van Dijk is out, (ii) Gomez/Matip have missed games in the past and (iii) Klopp did a mad 3 at the back at Brighton once before. Its 3 players playing in a back line made up of 1-2 CBs and 1-2 "other" like a full back. Similar to Tierney at Arsenal. If we play the 2 full backs "high" with freedom when we only have 2 CBs, then can we push them higher if we have 3 players in the last line of defence. And if we have play them higher, Jota could play the left side, and TAA could become even more attacking. Bobby would lose out, play Mane/Salah ala Suarez/Sturridge as a split left/right striker. Hendo and Thiago play in a 2 with a 3rd midfielder to be more attacking like Jones. I wonder if Tsimikas ever played in a back 3. But that was the thought process - dwindling CBs yet 4-5 full backs are available. I wouldn't see him going to 3 unless he is in a bad place, I think he trusts the system and way of playing too much to change. But if he does go there, I wonder what it looks like.

I'd had a look at the circumstances of the mad 3 at the back we had against Brighton. Here is what Wijnaldum said about it. That day we were missing Klavan, Matip and Gomez. We had Lovren fit. Van Dijk arrived later than month. Can't see us going to 3 at the back if we have 2 of any of Gomez, Matip, Fabinho. But its getting to a stage where it might be a decision between 3 experienced players in a different shape or same formation but with 1 inexperienced player (be it a younger defender or an older midfielder like Wijnaldum).

Not want But wondering what it could look like - a huge part of our game is around those full backs being so good so decisions to put the reigns on one of them would not be taken lightly. But if you are playing 3, then maybe Jota is more viable as a "wing" back and you get Salah/Mane operating as a 2 like the way Sturridge & Suarez did, one worked off the right, one worked off the left - they weren't a classic pair that operated close together.

So, we are down to 1 fit CB and an auxiliary midfield CB, but we have 4 fit full backs, 5 if you see Milner as an option if needed. I don't think we can be too far away from possibly trying 3 at the back with either 1 or 2 full backs in the back line; Gomez Fabinho Robertson - Jota/Tsimikas wide left, TAA wide right with more attacking freedom is no bad thing. We've a hectic schedule - I'm not sure we'll see alot of Matip, Gomez, Fabinho start the same game again this side of Christmas (you'd imagine there could be 1 or 2 but not too many).

I got the same one but it’s his right leg that was injured and that pic shows a banjaxed left leg.

If Firmino is off form - we could blood someone in a back 3 like Tierney at Arsenal. Nico on the right or Tsimikas on the left (or Milner or Robertson) Keep the full backs high so Mané/Salah can play further inside. If one of Gomez/Matip gets injured, we might have to look at that time he played Can & Wijnaldum either side of Lovren away at Brighton 3 years ago. Alisson Gomez Matip Robertson Henderson Thiago TAA [Wijnaldum/Jones] Jota Salah Mane

Yeah, we've been great for over 2 seasons now dominating almost every team. We'll lose Van Dijk's crossfield balls but I'd hope we'll still pin teams back and have most of the ball. The key question for me is if we back off teams just a bit and allow the 2 centre halves drop off a bit - or - is it the same gameplan and back them to carry on as normal. I imagine its the latter but wouldnt be surprised if the former is seen for a bit. We've Sheffield United and West Ham in between 3 CL games and then its Man City.

It would be like freezing a frame on a goal line decision and asking the ref to interpret the picture. If the pictures are good enough for a referee to freeze/draw lines then its good enough for technology to do its stuff.

The one I have seen is that the ball is "warped" and looks eliptical because they have frozen it when the ball is in motion and leaving the boot. In my initial post I wonder if AI cannot take over that part of the process rather than have human intervention. Can technology standardise the point at which offside is determined. The technology means that what were considered tight calls 2 seasons ago are now very clearly shown to be on or offside. I dont think it was ever contemplated that we'd have quite alot of decisions that would turn on the exact moment a ball was hit and whether a shoulder is offside. For those cases, the human factor in "freezing" the play and judging the point of the shoulder/arm is now the contentious part. If technology can provide an instantaneous "picture/decision" for ratification by the VAR ref (still human factor to make sure there is no reason to disagree with the freeze/lines) then it might help in the standardization of decisions.

Yes, that is true and they seem to be taking it at the latest point at which the ball is leaving the boot. But as thats the basis for all decisions, that "glitch" is present in all decisions. For that reason, I dont get hung up on it.

I've always found the "frames-per-second" thing to be a bit of a nonsense because every decision is being analyzed by the same technology. Where I think there can be room for improvement is for technology to make the determination initially and then let the VAR ref see if see if there are any anomolies with the outcome of technology. Rather than a person controlling the moment for the freeze-frame (ball kicked) and then trying to pick the points of the offside, let the AI make that determination. The simplest thing for the technology might be for it to just take the position of the feet rather than drop down lines from shoulders. Overall though, VAR offside has eradicated human error so that anything shown with more than - what - maybe 5 to 6 inches now seems like daylight. But I'm amazed how many goals come about from these marginal calls of maybe 1 to 2 inches. When VAR came in, I never even contemplated these types of decisions never mind the volume of them.

The rules allow for the game to proceed whilst there may be an offside. If the linesman doesn't flag (I'm ok with that) but VAR shows its offside - then what happens any offences in-between ? Anyone know if the rules cover it ? That offside call seems to decide between - a free out with nothing happening to Pickford or a penalty and red card. I am not questioning the line/VAR - if its onside then its reckless and red. If its offside then does a VAR-line absolve the recklessness of the challenge ? The decision takes seem to staple them both together but should they be seperate incidents. If a player commits a red card foul, should the offence be rescinded for unrelated matters such as VAR deciding on a seperate incident.

Cheers - I flicked that on after seeing this and was expecting Les Ferdinand