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Scottish Independence

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Can anyone explain Corbyn's support of Irish republicanism 

 

 

To put my answer into context I served in NI in the British Army at the height of the troubles and dealt on the ground with things like the Ballygawley bus bomb.

 

The UK Government have treated the Irish people abominably for centuries, for the last hundred years and for the last few decades up to the Good Friday Agreement. I recognise and respect the politicial and social aims of Republicanism. I abhor the violence, the hypocrisy, the extortion and making money through crime - but their cause has to be respected outside of that.

 

Corbyn has only ever met with elected political representatives. He also met repeatedly with ex loyalist paramilitaries who had become democratically elected politicians. He played a key role in negotiating the 1994 loyalist ceasfire which led tothe fruition of the whole peace process for example. Of course you won't read about this in the UK media.

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To be clear it's not the republicanism I need explained, it's why he doesn't feel Scottish and Welsh people deserve self-determination.

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Maybe cos Wales and Scotland weren't stolen and planted? I'm being somewhat facetious, but the basis of this has a nugget of truth.

It could be argued that England and Wales have long been a single entity, and the union with Scotland was made as a joint choice, notwithstanding the current attitude of separatists, but the situation with Ireland is historically completely different. From the Normans, through to the Tudors, and on to the Stewart realms, it has continually been a land-grab for fealty purposes, with less than no regard for the natives, and actively creating an apartheid system.

 

Regarding Flight's point about the crime element today, I've noticed that the media had stopped calling these groups "dissident Republicans", and are now calling them "organised criminal elements", which I'd say is a concerted effort to withdraw any possible credence these groups might take from being referred to with such political terminology as "Republican".

 

They're scum gangsters.

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Although, I do realise that Wales doesn't have so many defensive castles just for a laugh, and there was the Highland Clearances. (but Highlanders are basically Irish...)

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It could be argued that England and Wales have long been a single entity,

I'm not sure what that means, you do understand that Wales was conquered and its culture and language were systematically repressed?

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I'm not sure what that means, you do understand that Wales was conquered and its culture and language were systematically repressed?

Which is why I added the bit about castles.

I meant as a political unit.

I'd be genuinely interested to know how Welsh was able to survive and now thrive, whereas the Scots Gaelic and Irish languages were virtually wiped out?

Edited by Duncan Disorderly

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I wouldn't have a clue to be honest. Obviously people from my mum's generation fought for recognition of the language, but why that's any different to what went on elsewhere I don't know.

 

The reason Wales and England have long been a political unit is because of repression and occupation, it didn't just happen.

Edited by cymrococh

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I remember this thread last time. Surprising number of people against the idea of the Scots leaving as I recall.

 

That ref started the slow f*** uppery of the Labour Party as well. Brown et al standing on the same platform as the Tories against Scottish Indy meant labour were and still are finished north of the border for a lot of people.

 

The Scots staying was pitched as the best way for them to remain in the EU

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The reason Wales and England have long been a political unit is because of repression and occupation, it didn't just happen.

Aye, I know. I'm wording it wrong, maybe. Let's just blame it on the bloody invasion-minded Normans, and their lasting influence on the English establishment World-view.

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Aye, I know. I'm wording it wrong, maybe. Let's just blame it on the bloody invasion-minded Normans, and their lasting influence on the English establishment World-view.

Wales wasn't annexed until the Plantagenet / Tudor periods.

 

The principle is pretty simple here, Wales and Scotland are culturally different to England. If it's the will of a majority of the voters in those countries to end the union and become independent of the UK then the UK parliament shouldn't be able to stand in their way. Same argument as for Catalonian independence from Spain.

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Wales wasn't annexed until the Plantagenet / Tudor periods.

 

The principle is pretty simple here, Wales and Scotland are culturally different to England. If it's the will of a majority of the voters in those countries to end the union and become independent of the UK then the UK parliament shouldn't be able to stand in their way. Same argument as for Catalonian independence from Spain.

This bit is part of the GFA and any possible border poll for a united Ireland, albeit at the discretion of the NI SoS, but it's a guarantee of sorts. So I reckon it's double standards when it comes to the Tories flatly denying even a discussion about it when it comes to Scotland and Wales.

Wales wasn't annexed until the Plantagenet / Tudor periods.

 

Hence my bit about the lasting influence.

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There's a Commons bill being introduced that will - for any referendum of any kind -

1) Up the "pass" vote margin to 60%

2) Require minimum 55% voter turnout

3) Require a 2/3 majority in both the Commons and Lords to pass it.

 

https://twitter.com/AUOBCymru/status/1216846056815767566

 

Yes. This will get messy.

In addition to any Scottish/Welsh challenges, it seems to me they are making sure the stable door is well and truly shut now they set the horse free in 2016...

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The Scots staying was pitched as the best way for them to remain in the EU

Who by? I can’t remember that being a major plank of the no campaign.

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Who by? I can’t remember that being a major plank of the no campaign.

From memory, it was probably the 2nd biggest plan k in No campaign after the economic argument. I clearly remembering Cameron use the phrase "the only way to guarantee EU membership is to remain in the UK"

 

I'll try drag some video footage out

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I think the argument also included views on how a Scottish currency would be integrated into Europe and that they would need to apply which would also include taking the euro

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Was a huge thing from the "better together" campaign. Only way to guarantee EU membership was to vote no was said by all and sundry.

Also "the vow" that was plastered on all the front pages signed by the party leaders that we would get more devolved powers.Which didnt happen by the way.

A lot of the dont knows bought into the whole project fear rhetoric and voted No.

Its unbelievable the amount of people you speak to now who voted no and would now vote yes.

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Was a huge thing from the "better together" campaign. Only way to guarantee EU membership was to vote no was said by all and sundry.

 

The EU were also saying it would be difficult/impossible for Scotland to join, mainly due to fears it would encourage sucessionist movements in other EU countries.

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The EU were also saying it would be difficult/impossible for Scotland to join, mainly due to fears it would encourage sucessionist movements in other EU countries.

Oh yeah actually I remember that bit

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Was a huge thing from the "better together" campaign. Only way to guarantee EU membership was to vote no was said by all and sundry.

Also "the vow" that was plastered on all the front pages signed by the party leaders that we would get more devolved powers.Which didnt happen by the way.

A lot of the dont knows bought into the whole project fear rhetoric and voted No.

Its unbelievable the amount of people you speak to now who voted no and would now vote yes.

 

yep - which is why, following Brexit, they should be allowed a further referendum. I say that without wishing the break up of the UK but it feels inevitable. 

 

The EU were also saying it would be difficult/impossible for Scotland to join, mainly due to fears it would encourage sucessionist movements in other EU countries.

 

I wonder how the EU feel about it now post the Brexit Referendum

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yep - which is why, following Brexit, they should be allowed a further referendum. I say that without wishing the break up of the UK but it feels inevitable. 

 

 

I wonder how the EU feel about it now post the Brexit Referendum

Given that the EU currently contains countries that have seceded or split from others then it's a weird position. I wonder if that was done more with (at the time) a UK vote on leaving the EU looking likely to happen - and now that it has it would more suit the EU to admit Scotland to piss off what's left of the UK

 

Cymro - was just about to post that b******s from Nandy. Good that she's showing her true colours early on - and lets hope what Pip posted in the other thread about JBL being the frontrunner is true.

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Given that the EU currently contains countries that have seceded or split from others then it's a weird position. I wonder if that was done more with (at the time) a UK vote on leaving the EU looking likely to happen - and now that it has it would more suit the EU to admit Scotland to piss off what's left of the UK

 

 

the UK vote on leaving the EU was committed to by Cameron in Jan 2013, if the Tories won the 2015 Election - so i reckon it's fair to say it was a factor

 

 

*musing out loud*........ I wonder what desire there would be for a new Celtic Republic of Ireland/Scotland/Wales in the EU - leave England to blather away on its own

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