londonkopite

What I meant mate, is that it should be a given no matter the sport. The point I was making is that "tracking back" doesn't nevessarily mean you are working hard. Look at Leo Messi - does he track back? Does Ronaldo? But then look at their contribution to the team.

Looks like a great get out clause for the players. Sad really given that we have outspent United and Arsenal in the past 5 years. Even sadder that we probably got Rafa because of his ability to win things without spending loads of money.

I think their emphasis is more on keeping the ball moving and attacking the opposition high up the pitch as their first priority. Of course being the best in the world at winning the ball back also helps... the thing about Barcelona though is that every player from the full backs to the attackers are given freedon to express themselves. Hard work is a given but young players (like Ronaldo) need to be coached to play football first and thats what is missing at grassroots level too where there is too much emphasis on getting stuck in and "work hard" and not enough on the technical aspects of the game.

Abramovich has written a contract to trustees stating that if he leaves Chelsea, he will leave it with no debts and a fixed amount of capital to ensure it can keep going without his money. We are in pretty worse s*** than Chelsea. How the f*** did we end up with Hicks and Gillett? Bloody hell... its like letting your daughter marry El Hadji Diouf!

Yep he would have turned out s*** if Rafa not got hold of him.. in fact he was s**** in the season before Rafa came here! On a serious note, not all players are the same - flair players need to be given freedom to do what they want, to make mistakes, not to be tied down by defensive shackles etc.... hence why we have hardly had much success with our attacking signings on the whole under both GH and Rafa bar the odd few exceptions.

It was relevent given Bascombe's comment.

They sell big because they are excellent are nurtering young talent and selling for good money, they also get good money for past it players like Nistellroy and Beckham who got a combined £40m. The key is in their replacements though - United struck gold with Ronaldo - a player who would never have flourished in the same way under a manager like Houllier or even Rafa. He was allowed to play week in week out and make mistakes and not track back or work very hard and in the end came good - would GH or Rafa tolerated that? Just look at Babel as an example.

Given that we have outspent United and Arsenal in Rafa's 5 years here its not unreasonable to suggest that we aren't paupers. However, owners deserve all the s*** that they get because they lied about the debt and about the stadium. Bascombe suggesting that we should cut them some slack is a case of him siding with them out of hate for Rafa.

Mate, they have replaced big players like Beckham, Nistellroy and Keane without fuss... not only do they improve on the team they can changed whole teams pretty well. If United win the league this season without replacing Ronaldo and Tevez properly - what then?

So match Houllier's last season?

Wenger introduced Anelka, Overmars, Petit, Vieira, Grimandi etc to the team in the first season. Thats half the team. The team also hadn't won f*** all in ages. He won a double with a team assembled for f*** all money even when you include the older players. It can be done...

What do people think his remit was in 2004? Win the league by outspending United and Chelsea?

I agree with all that mate, I also think we need two world class players to really make it. But what annoys me is he moaning about money, the making of excuses. Look what happened the last time a team said "f*ck you* to United - Arsenal won a double in 1998 (without vast money or time) and did an amazing thing in 2003. Its possible.

BUT BUT BUT - fact is we have spent more than United and Arsenal over the past 5 years, not just the past 2 years. If we are skint then they must be bankrupt. We can discuss what they do with the Ronaldo money once they spend it not until then...

We aren't getting anywhere are we? Rafa has spent more than Arsenal and United since he got here. Would you have settled for that when he first joined with the remit of winning the league without spending big? I give up!

In the past 2 years, yes. Check your facts.

Why be abusive? I have written loads in each of my posts and tried to explain why I think the players shouldn't be moaning.

I've read numerous interviews in the early years of him saying we need to be clever and that money isn't everything. BUT it doesn't matter he has spent more than United and Arsenal since 2004 and more than Chelsea these past 2 years.

Great response, well thought and written.

Both Arsenal and United have Positive Net Spends over the last 24 months. Infact both clubs are significantly weaker this season than last term.... Chelsea have a similar net spend to us... so this isn't a time to be crying about money. What next? Fans and players crying about Man City? This is all a negative slant started by the manager without the real facts taken into account. We all want the owners out sure for being ass holes and piling on debt but they have spent money on players as much as our rivals if not more in the past 2 odd years.

I cannot believe what I am reading.... seriously.

Anyone who takes the Liverpool job knows that United spend vast amounts more on wages and transfer fees, they know that we are on a similar budget to Arsenal except we pay a lot more in transfer fees and they pay slightly more in wages. So when Rafa took over in 2004 he knew the deal, we were going to spend less than United but we had to be "clever" and try and catch up - a bit like Arsenal did in 1998 and subsequent years. To the clubs credit they have given Rafa more money than Ferguson has spent these past 5 years, and more than what Arsenal have spent, hell we have spent more than Chelsea these past 2 years! Yet every bloody week hear people crying about money not least the players and the manager. Its like the excuses are already in... He knew the deal when he joined us, the fans loved it because we were getting a man who took Valencia from a Champions League team to a league title winning team instantly without spending anything - ironically which is what he needs to do with LFC right now. I'd understand if our rivals were outspending us and we moaned, but they aren't. We are close to being champions and thats down to Rafa's coaching genius he doesn't need to ruin it bu continually going on about money... something we thought he would never do when he first walked into the job.

The sooner we get someone better the sooner we will turn those tough Villaesque fixtures into wins.

Relative resources - would you have complained in 2004 if someone said Liverpool would give Rafa more money than the Mancs give Ferguson in the next 5 years?

We have spent more than the Mancs and Arsenal with a manager who came here to win things without having to spend shed loads... yet every week we hear players or the manager moaning about money. We can win this league, we just need to believe we can and stop making excuses.