yellow jumper

don't think what he does for ghana is any real guide either. it's the baros defence. they're pretty different players. essien's more versatile, probably more like gerrard, but he isn't in the same class of ball playing as alonso.

and it's because of fernando?

obviously totally demotivating and unsettling for fans, players and the club. as any hundred previous examples of a board undermining their manager will illustrate.

neither of them felt like a title challenge really. we were way behind arsenal that season, and behind united for much of it. we got more points and went on a longer unbeaten run in 05/06.

i disagree. i think the 05/06 season was the closest we've looked to a title winning side in terms of consistency, and at a time when the league was won with a record number of points. i don't think houllier or evans ever had competition of the quality or spending power of the current united, chelsea or arsenal sides. what he's done in the league up until this season represents a progression from where we were. the side he took over was really really poor. since then he's outperformed wenger, who at the time was in charge of a team of 'invincibles'.

he was in charge twice as long, and the importance of those finals pales in comparison. we've qualified comfortably for champions league football in successive seasons under rafa, not something that ever happened under houllier. there was no "big four" in 2004. we've also finished with our highest premiership points total.

taking this season apart as it isn't even finished and there's clearly other issues in play. we have been far more consistent in the league than at any time in the preceding decade. and been to four cup finals.

we got a result. arsenal lost there. chelsea and united have both been stuffed there in recent seasons. we're playing s****. there's a lot of doom and gloom around the club, but a fair chunk of that isn't really the manager's fault. whether you agree with his 'focusing' outburst or not he said it out of a desire to push the club forward and succeed. which is harder thing to say about most of the heirarchy.

i agree we've been playing really badly over recent weeks. i'm not sure the players have run out of faith though, confidence looks more of an issue to me, the fact that we're still pulling out results when we have no real right to suggests they're still fighting. the difference between us and title winners is that they generally win games when they don't play well, we usually draw them. i think some of that's down to mentality, and as such can be blamed on the manager, but just as much is simply down to the quality of players.

on an unrelated point, newcastle could do worse than look at the bremen manager, he's bought well, they play a good brand of football, and despite losing klose and suffering an epic injury list are still in contention for the title again this year.

we've also seen some of our best performances in recent years this season.

i think benitez is a better manager than houllier personally. beyond that i think it's just the most recent example of what can happen when things go wrong for a liverpool manager. it's not a blueprint. the circumstances are entirely different anyway. houllier managed in relative security. he'd also almost lost his life. the difference between the treble season/the year we finished second and the two or three years after that were huge. this season isn't even over.

is it possible to go backward to go forwards? or should it just be season after season of progress until we get what we want. a change of manager would be a short term fix for the frustration of fans waiting for a league title.

we're not good enough. chelsea won the league playing a controlled, defensive style and would have won that game 1-0. you may not like it, but it can work. alternatively we could be like spurs or newcastle and play 'attacking' football. winning 3-0 one week, losing 3-0 the next.

we're not good enough to win the league. we haven't got the players, we haven't got any recent form or belief, and we're not throwing the money other clubs have at it. changing the manager isn't going to alter that in the near future.

i'm not a rafa supporter. i'm a liverpool supporter. we're not playing very well, and the manager's made mistakes... but i don't blithely assume things would be any better with a.n.other manager in place. it's going to take time or money, or both whoever's in charge. without absolute megabucks, the winning clubs all have stability of management, and leadership from the board in common.

riise isn't a defensive option. and finnan isn't neccessarily either. neither of them's playing very well though.

no team is built form the front backwards. our defence isn't good enough at the moment, and that's effecting our ability to attack with any confidence. chelsea's success was built on a strong back 5 plus makele. united, had plenty of great attacking players, but the signing of a holding midfielder in carrick, and more importantly vidic and evra have been crucial in their improvement.

which of benitez's signing's fulfils that description? i think there are clear signs that he's trying to develop youth.

point is they don't really need him to a world beater now, but he may well be one in two/three years time, making the 15 million look like good business. which is what happened with ronaldo. and could do with babel. admittedly we're still at this perpetual stage of development where we need a few real quality attacking signings to close the gap. but without the 60 + million it might take to add those players, we have to look at other options. developing youth is one way, being defensively and tactically secure is another. we should have kept anelka when we had him.

don't think gronkjaer was ever regarded as anything special, certainly not in england. he never won the premiership either. we've been linked with him in the past.

ranieri also signed lampard, gallas, cole, cudicini, makele. and the signings of robben and cech were also both announced while he was still at the club (whether these were actually his buys or not is open for debate). mutu and crespo are both very good players too.

wenger also bought plenty of duds. grimandi, wreh, diawarra, luzhny, stepanovs, jeffers, wright off the top of my head. how long have the likes of fabregas, eboue, clichy, senderos, denilson, flamini been there? their current squad has either been given time to develop, or cost decent money like rosicky, hleb etc. walcott needed both time and money. and it's three years and counting... alonso, reina, agger, torres compares favourably with any of the signings in the league over recent seasons. said in a previous thread these comparisons are pretty lame anyway, particularly the ones across eras.

take issue with the second bit of this. what does "others are" mean? there's only one man managing this club.

yeah and for everyone of them there's also a darren bent, or a diego forlan, or a james beattie.