Kite

I was saying players had less pressure on them, in some regards, back pre the modern football era. When the guys go to Eastern Europe today to play a match, they can't do anything at all - they have to just sit and wait for the match to come around. In Giles' day, they would have gone for a few pints and done whatever they wanted really. There's more mental pressures on players today that way, more is expected of them, day in day out, in terms of fitness and diet etc. They get less chances to just relax and don't get the same "space" players from years ago had. Plus, year's ago players did not have to reach anything like optimal fitness because there was a lower bar anyway - quite a few players smoked, never mind drank too much beer! It was simply a very different environment then. (Part of me feels that the present accentuation of player fitness has ruined the game a bit - there's lots of players these days who are simply great athletes, not necessarily great "footballers").

Morientes is a better player than Cisse - a better team player and a more intelligent player. Those of us who do know a bit about football can see beyond the missed chances to that fact. If you truly did play football (at even the most basic level) you must have played on tiny bloody pitches if you think a ball that has travelled half the width of the pitch can be placed, on the volley, at a stretch, to one side of the goal with the ease you are claiming.

As I said earlier, it's nothing to do with being able to run around for 90mins. Any decent athlete can do that.

The point is that is unrealistic to dismiss the argument, which some try to do. Look at our players? Do they look jaded to you? They do to me.

Doesn't explain why some people are claiming it was a bad miss then.

I also think it's daft altogether (immature and ill informed, basically) to dismiss the tiredness argument... The pre-season games for the Champ League may have been against rubbish opposition but they involved several unnecessary flights across Europe the normal pre-season friendlies would avoid, and they involved an amount of mental stress that would not be present in normal pre-season games. What people who try to dismiss the tiredness argument don't seem to adequately take account of is the mental exertion needed for matches, not just the physical side. The trip to Japan is the same - extra flights and extra unnecessary pressure. My brother played in the Premiership (briefly enough) and the one thing he hated most of all was away games in Europe - nothing to do at all but play cards yet under pressure to stay focused and fit. It is draining and it is having an effect on players in our squad. All you have to do is look at a player like Alonso, who is the epitome of class and professionalism, and you can see how the mental aspects of his game (ie creativity and flair for example) are suffering at the moment and look below par, though the physical side of his game is still fine. The Wigan match is a demonstation of that - Alonso gave the game 100% for the total 90mins, closing down Wigan and winning the ball etc etc but he very rarely came up with a killer pass throughout the game. Giles misses this point altogether as in his day there was less Eusropean matches so less travelling and, when they did travel, there was less pressure on them to follow dietary regimes and the like - they could go off and get pissed and no-one bothered. The reality of today's coaching makes hugely different demands on players.

Both Baros and Pongolle can run with the ball at their feet well whereas Cisse wants to just run after the ball - you can't lump all three into the same bracket. Technically Baros and Pongolle are better players than Cisse - in terms of overall effectiveness, Baros is probably the best. I don't agree with the initial post - we play plenty of balls into space already just Cisse wants balls in spaces that often don't really exist. However, Sabre's point is probably the truest, you'll get most out of Cisse by playing deep and leaving him on the halfway line, then just balloon the ball into the opposition half for him to chase after. Makes me think he'd do well at Chelsea!!

Yeah, that incident stood out for me too. It was very significant at the time, too, to keep possession - something that he is brilliant at when fit and on form.

Xabi was not s***. He may not have spent 90 mins hitting 90 yard balls but there's more to being in midfield than that.

Thought Gerrard was one of our weakest players myself. Alonso's passing was awful in general but he was stuck in for 90mins and was constantly closing down their players. Gerrard seemed to only start playing for the last 20 or 30 mins. Moro had a much better game today and felt he was working fairly well with Fowler, but again no real end product. Overall I didn't think anyone was over a 7, especially given the ground we conceded to them in the second half. I'd pick Hyppia man of the match, for general good defensive play and the very important goal, though Dudek certainly did well today too.

That saves me a bit of writing, agree with all that. Favorite buy at the moment is probably Sissoko - certainly rough around the edges but I think in two seasons time he'll be world class. Agger also looks like he could be a new Hansen in time. Additionally, I think the club has made great strides signing up young talent in general, during those two windows. My biggest concerns over the transfer window would be (if I had to come up with something) not who we got in but who we didn't manage to unload!

Yeah, but what exactly is his position? He doesn't look very convincing as a striker at all, if anything wide right is the best postion for him to play. It's the only position he seems capable of putting in "decent" performances.

My brother played football at Chelsea with John Terry and can certify the man is a grade A idiot.

I thought the same. He looked good last night only relative to his usual performances. But objectively, in isolation, he was just okay.

That horse faced idiot from United would, I'm sure, have been there first to break his fall though - so no harm there.

It is totally daft to argue that playing more games than another team has no effect at all on performances. It may be a fundamental problem that our strike force is unbalanced and unable to provide the final cutting edge to team play but, additionally, having played more full professional matches than other teams in our situation, players like Carra, Hyypia, Gerrard and Alonso are noticeably no longer having the impact on games that they would have had pre-Christmas. They are simply looking jaded and had we the resources, intelligent squad rotation would undoubtedly boost the team at this point. We can only hope that those key players will be able to mentally raise themsleves for the still long haul ahead.

Exactly. No-one's talking about whether the players can run for 90 mins but whether they can apply themselves creatively to the game for 90mins, twice a week. The players in general look jaded at the moment, including some of the "dependable" ones.

so, how games have you played then this year?

Understandable maybe but what can Rafa do about it? Our strikers are not helping the cause by frequently not holding the ball up intelligently but, overall, our squad is not big enough (especially now that we've loaned out so many) to have effective rotation. Perhaps, champ league football will wake them up a bit. It's a depressing time at the moment though.

agree. Plus the extra physicality of the game here would add to his tiredness I'm sure

We are missing invention. Again that could be levelled at tiredness but there's still a long way to go this season so we are f***ed if it's all down to tiredness at this stage.

We are a good side but missing the sharp cutting edge up front alright Cisse is the one Rafa is taking off now.

kromkamp coming on now

Riise coming on apparently

We need the Pellegrino effect again?