Ginu

Abramovic was crucified for having secret talks with someone (at this point I don't remember who it is) and now our owners have done the same thing. I don't believe for a second that they were just taking precautionary measures - it's boll*cks. They saw the support we gave Rafa in December and knew they couldn't sack him. Hicks has no credibility anymore. Get G+H out now.

Is there anything we can do as fans to express our displeasure of this situation on a larger scale? similarly to how we backed rafa with a public display... we need to show parry and moores that this situation isn't tolerated by the fans of the club, and we won't stand for G+H putting the debt on the club... if anything, hopefully it forces G+H to sell knowing they're not on our good sides at the moment and wouldn't be a great investment just one year in

The problem is our attacking players, not Mascherano. If he was the problem, Argentina wouldn't be the force they are.

The other positive aspect of that lineup is that when Rafa wants to play a 4-5-1 and pack the midfield, Babel can easily shift to the right flank for Stevie to tuck into the middle, or Babel could just drop off a couple of yards and leave Torres alone up front. I don't see anything negative with that formation at all! Stevie always drifts inside from the right flank giving us another forward option, while Arbeloa overlaps on the right hand side and pushes the defender deep (essentially going to 3 at the back in attack). This lineup has everything! Mascherano isn't the problem. If he was, Argentina wouldn't be the force they are.

As the first post pointed out, we can all agree that the spine of our team is solid. We just need a couple players to put us over the top. And a lot of our problem isn't the quality, for me it's that if we're not playing a top 4 team, we come out of the gates so quietly so as to not wake up the neighbour and just try to slowly get into the game, instead of coming out firing and taking over from the beginning. And when we don't, if we do end up getting an early goal, the rest of our performance rises ten-fold, otherwise we look like we did today. Whether this is our strategy to just try to keep the ball in the beginning of a match, or a lack of belief/desire/arrogance/motivation (whatever you want to call it), something is missing in our attacking strategy. To me (and I'm sure many others), Rafa has always been a defensive manager first. Other than Pellegrino and Josemi, all of his center midfield/defense purchases have been ace: Agger, Mascherano, Sissoko (who has a role but with fewer opportunities has lost a lot of confidence), Arbeloa, Aurelio, Lucas and Alonso, even Reina, to name a few (am I missing any?). In Babel, Torres, Benayoun, Pennant, Voronin, Morientes, Kuyt, Gonzalez, Crouch and Fowler (nobody really expected too much but we appreciated the thought of bringing our boy home) I'd say only a handful have really succeeded. Is this because Rafa has better eyes for a defender than an attacker? I'm sure it also has to do with tougher tackling and less space for attackers in England, and players not being suited for the English style, etc., but I don't think it's rocket science to understand why we seem world class in the back 2/3s of the pitch and seem inept unless Torres or Gerrard create something out of nothing. IMO Rafa has the ability to find world-class defending players at reasonable prices, but isn't able to buy superb attacking talent without the cash. Again, our spine is excellent: Reina, Arbeloa, Agger, Aurelio, Carra (has been great but can he really be considered part of the spine for the future considering his age and recent performances?), Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano, Torres, Babel, Kewell, Lucas (IMO). This means we need to play these players week in and week out (Lucas as the exception) barring injuries and fill the rest with capable players. No more strikers on frees, from now on we need to buy players who are good enough to start 80% of the games. Start this lineup in most games for the REST of the season and see how it works: Reina Arbeloa Carra Agger Aurelio Gerrard Alonso Mascherano Kewell Babel Torres Anybody also notice we always end up with our best lineup at the end of every season, but then start again from scratch with something new each season? USE WHAT YOU'VE LEARNED THE PREVIOUS SEASON FFS!

That's exactly what's gotten us into this mess. Defenders who are comfortable on the ball are a must. They need to lead the attack from the back by playing a sound first ball rather than hoofing it up. And we have too many of those players. Finnan, Carragher, Hyypia and Riise are all guilty of it regularly, moreso when Crouch is on. Bonus you say? I say it's a requirement.

This isn't about Rafa. It's about Crouch, Kuyt, Carra, Riise and Hyypia all showing they don't deserve to wear a Liverpool shirt or are way past it. If Alonso wasn't coming back from injury, I'd be livid with him too. But those players have this season shown they aren't good enough for us to move forward. I'm sorry Carra because you've been the heart of our defense since Rafa arrived but it's time to pass the torch.

What does it say about the quality of these players when Luton Town is giving our regular back 4 of so many years problems? Finnan, Carra, Sami and Riise all need help. I don't give a sh*t. This is awful. Carra needs a replacement. Get Garay in ASAP.

SLOW THE GAME DOWN AND KEEP THE BALL. IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!

Alonso.

Half the squad deserves to be f*cked off because of this performance. Alonso, Riise, Hyypia, Kuyt, Benayoun all take a look in the mirror. This is shocking.

That isn't the point. This is: Without using additional funds, Mascherano can be made permanent by selling these players. If we need to spend that money on a defender, the only reason is that we don't have additional funds. If that's the case and we sold to owners who have no money, we're utterly f*cked and it doesn't matter if we have Masch going forward or not. So for me, assuming we didn't sell the club to a bunch of numpties, you keep Masch every time.

Looks like the jersey guy finally got a proper long sleeve kit for Kewell.

If you want to bring up specific examples, we can look at the table to see how many times each team has come out on top. Obviously we do it to a far lesser extent.

I'm sure that had we had match winners in Kuyt and Benayoun's positions today we would have put one of those 2 chances away. Those players have that belief that they'll put those away. Those types of match winners have that attitude based on experience. We need more quality in the side but as the original post said, we are getting there.

Masch, Benayoun, Kewell and Kuyt aren't offering as much of a goal threat as we need. Masch and Kewell are extremely important in the way we play, and with Kewell coming back from injury, he was never going to score goals right away. And even though Benayoun has been playing the Garcia role great for us, we need to put top class players in both his and Kuyt's position that can score goals.

Wetknapp always irritates me whenever I hear him.

That has driven me mad for years hahaha!

I think the problem is Kuyt is great against teams where we want to clog the midfield so when he's in the side we essentially play a 4-5-1. But he doesn't offer the attacking flair or attack like a Tevez does, though he does have a high work rate. While Babel (still raw), Benayoun and Kewell do offer attacking options, as has been said, we need another player to play with Torres that can drive the team forward and raise the pace of the match like Gerrard does. That's the type of player we're missing, an Aimar type if you will. EDIT: I'm not suggesting Aimar is as good as Stevie. Maybe Aimar isn't the right player but you get my point.

Which is funny because in a counter attacking team, while he does launch it forward, he actually plays well and passes the ball well too. In an attacking team against poor opposition, we need an Aurelio type.

The problem is, in a Reading game with the passing abilities of Sissoko, he stands out like a sore thumb. When he's surrounded by a good team, he has to do less and keeps it simple. That's when he does well.

Kuyt is made for these games where we want to play two strikers but also clog the midfield. Marseille nad nothing playing a 4-5-1 with Kuyt dropping off to the centre circle. As much as I want us to play the same team against the Mancs, Crouch and Voronin didn't figure today so my bet is Fernando matching up with Crouch. Plus we all know Rafa rarely keeps the same team twice consecutively. Harry MoM

BABEL WONDER GOAL!

Is that Sami's new nickname?

he's right about benitez... the team he fielded on saturday was sh*t