Shanklyanfield

People say we done well because we battled? Battling is the least you expect of a Liverpool team - you battle and then your quality comes out and you win! The problem is without Gerrard or Torres we haven't got any quality to win a game and especially when your manager puts 6 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders on a pitch! Rafa went there not to loose and he got his wish - but that is the problem! People will point to the lucas pen - which should have been a pen but if lucas had gone down when the challenge came in instead of before the challenge then he would have got the pen..... but if we are hanging on to a 60/40 decision to beat a team like Stoke then we have got real problems!! Simply not good enough! the only players to play well today are the Greek and Lucas and that is saying something!!!

possibly a pen - but lucas was going down before the contact! if he had let the contact take him down then definite pen! So no the great Liverpool are hoping for a 60/40 decision to win them a game away at stoke - FFS!!! because we created only 1 other chance and that's the one our striker couldn't hit the target when clear!!!

Bad Luck for what? the fact our striker with a clean header at goal can't hit the target? or apart from the goal their keeper didn't make a save!! shocking performance and I'm finally going to say it - Rafa has to go!!

and we have created how many chances in the first half???

But Aqua is fully fit - rafa's 20M summer signing who can't get in a team without gerrard, torres and yossi!, pacheco is fully fit and has shown some great touches and composure in games. Babel is fully fit and should at least be an option on the bench with gerrard, torres and yossi not even in the squad! If you wanted an attacking team for this game you could have it! Well a lot more attacking than the actual team! Reina Degen Carra Skrtel Insua Aqua Mash Lucas Kuyt Pacheco NGog That team above is without including maxi , riera etc... who if they are fit enough for the final 30-45 mins, play them from the beginning, get 2 or 3-0 up then take them off! It is much harder in football to change from a defensive mindset to an attacking one than the other way round....

8 Defensive players in a must win game (Aqua on the bench and Babel not even travelling) - I really am starting to feel Rafa has lost it and the more pressure he's under the more defensive his team selections! I hope I'm wrong but I just can't see with that team where any creativity is coming from! *shakes head*

Kuyt for not touching gerrard's shot. That's all folks................

A fluke - your opinion so I'll give it you... but it's still a shot on goal that 'flukely' went in... how many other midfielders had a shot on goal today??? What did Lucas do today? How many shots on goal? How many great passes that nearly led to a goal? To be fair he didn't give the ball away a lot (apart from nearly putting their midfielder 1 on 1 with reina and then just standing there) but then it's easy not to give it away when it's always a safe ball played! Souness was a different type of captain to Gerrard, so was Keane they used to ball at players where as stevie generally leads by example and it's Carra that does the shouting. Also Souness and Keane hardly ever had to give these so called b******ings out...... Gerrard would have been doing it every week for the last 6 months!! and so maybe it's Carra's fault because he isn't being as vocal as usual and giving his usual b******ings! Maybe they are both so p****d off and constantly having a go / telling other players how to play football / do the basics that they realise no matter what they say or how they react it doesn't make any difference.

Gerrard had a bad game yet still scored our only goal.... who stepped up today and took the game by the scruff of the neck - something that gerrard has done so many times for us?? I noticed you totally missed all the other points made as well. I'll ask you 1 question... is Gerrard our problem?

but you are comparing him to other captains of liverpool and I simply made the statement how many other liverpool captains carried the team? I'll flip your question.... how many other liverpool captains got the team out of the s*** as many times as gerrard has got us out of the s***? Gerrard has a bad period and it's because he doesn't care, isn't captain material etc... his average performance is still better than 90% of our squad's performances... the problem is because our squad is so s*** if gerrard and torres don't play well nobody else is good enough to step up and so it is more obvious! If Hansen, Souness, Hughes and all our other great captains went through a bad spell it wasn't as obvious because the team kept winning and they had quality around them. Gerrard has got mostly s*** around him - that's the difference it's more noticable! Might have been a fluke but how many shots did our other midfielders have on goal in the game????? Gerrard is not the problem with this liverpool team, far from it - full stop!

Has any other liverpool captain had to carry the team by himself for 6 years like gerrard has had to? I agree he was poor today and hasn't been his usual self all season but he scored today from midfield and apart from torres who else in that team looks like scoring?????

disgusting and shocking and not the Ref, I'm talking about the players and the manager! No fight, no effort, the same s***e players staying on the pitch regardless of how they are playing. Why bring on spearing with 3 minutes to go? WTF is that going to give you and how is it going to influence the game! You've got babel and Ngog on the bench but no we bring on a defensive midfielder when we are 2-0 down and that is the main issue with Rafa. As much as I hate to say it, if that was the scum they would have had Rooney, Owen, Berbatov on trying to win the game even down to 10 men, with Rafa he try's not to concede any more. It's like deja-va with houlliers last season.

totally agree, these performances just get worse!!

11/1 on betfair

I think it will be auerlio in midfield alongside masch, yossi left, kuyt right and gerrard off ngog. But I'd much prefer yossi off ngog with gerrard back in the middle. Rafa likes 2 defensive midfielders even at home against the might of Wigan!

Wonder if he'll be sold after 6 months but play less games than Keane?

Very surprised he's dropped lucas (not that I'm disappointed) but very surprised after doing that aquilani is still on the bench! Yossi behind Ngog and gerrard back in the middle?

1 assist and 1 own goal - there's another statistic for you!!

it's easy to be in the top 5 for pass completion when you pass it 5 yards backwards or sideways! how many assists or goals has lucas got this season, and please don't even try and compare lucas to mascherano in the defensive midfielder stakes!!!!!

Yossi was really poor I agree, but if Lucas was one of our best players then we really need to make big changes as he was s***e again!

If we are a better team than arsenal how come we are 7 points behind having played a game more! get into the real world!!!

have to agree, with masch you know he won't hit a ball 60 yards but he is brilliant at what he does = break play up. Alonso wouldn't run 40 yards to make a last-ditch tackle, but he could control the game, hit a ball 60 yards with brilliant accuracy etc... I just don't know what Lucas does? he does everything very, very averagely and if Rafa keeps picking him it's going to cost him his job! We are on the same points as Birmingham and 1 point ahead of Fulham who's best play we let go 5 years ago (Danny Murphy).

but that's rafa at the moment, insua, skrtel, degen and dossena aint going to change a game for you!!! out of 7 subs and 1 is a goalkeeper, he has 4 defensive players on the bench, which only leaves 2 attacking places left!! Where was el-zhar and pacheco today especially since it was torres' first game back?

I must watch a different game if people think that Lucas was MOTM! He contributed nothing going forward and didn't destroy Arsenal's attack like Masch did! We lost all our shape once Masch went off!

you thought who was MOTM?