Jambo

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Agree with Dus - certain other countries do have a hardcore hooligan element. But provided you don't run up against them, chances are the atmosphere with all the other fans will be generally warm, celebratory and good natured. When England come to town however, it's a different atmopshere. Darker, more aggressive, ugly and unpleasant. Martin Kelner caught it very well here: "Of all the profoundly depressing scenes, the most horrible was when two smiling Brazilian girls, about 15 or 16 years old, approached a bunch of England fans hoping to join in the fun, only to find themselves bearded by a mob singing that old favourite, Get Your t*** Out For The Lads. For a while the girls continued to smile, thinking maybe it was harmless joshing after all, but as the lads advanced the camera caught the precise moment when the girls' smiles froze, they realised they might be in trouble and began to back away, bemused but still wearing their rictus grins, a brilliant loss-of-innocence shot." It's nothing to do with the English feeling guilty and "bashing themselves over the head" about it. They bloody should feel guilty. It's absolutely shameful that there are so many scum out there following England in this way, and it's even worse to hear apologists trying to play it all down.

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I honestly don't agree - ignoring them is actually what every other media outlet has been doing. As far as they were concerned the 'real story' of the England fans in this world cup was: reformed characters, lovely bunch of cheeky boys, isn't it great it's become a nice day out for all the family. The reality that I saw in Germany was lots of loutish, tuneless, aggressive Ing-er-lund shouting ugliness. Ignoring this fact actually legitimises that kind of behaviour. If it doesn't raise an eyebrow in the media then fans are going to think it's normal, acceptable even. Yes, most England fans weren't there for a fight, were not 'hooligans' in that sense. But a very significant minority were boorish, aggressive towards outsiders and frankly quite frightening.

I was f***ing disgusted

That is appallingly ghost-written! "Lily-Ella. Come on, this final?s for her. Let?s go to work." :cringe: I'd be amazed if Winter had written that. If he did I stand corrected, cos I've always rated him.

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Terry is an absolute c***

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Oh this is so sad. Poor poor Jerzy

he was s***! I thought Poll did alright in the first game actually. It's a conspiracy.

Me too - 33-1! Gutted when he missed that chance for his hat trick. But we're sitting pretty with Tunisia and the Saudis to come (provided Aragones doesn't put Raul back in...)

Maybe they thought it would make a great souvenir of a glorious triumph?