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3 of our new recruits in Gonzalez, Bellamy and Pennant were brought in to inject much needed foot-speed. Kuyt and Bellamy offer power and aggression up front. I would love to find out Rafa's mentality behind excluding two of the four from his 16, and I'm not so sure it's got anything to do with fitness of the players. Crouch, Alonso, LG, Sami, Fnnan and Gerrard all played midweek internationals, but Gonzales didn't. Riise was dumped back in after only just recovering from his ankle injury. Given the style of play we were forced to employ due to Everton's pressing game, the more direct and long approach, we needed to put players who could run with the ball, and quickly. Instead we had Crouchy and Robbie up front, and the lightweight Garcia on the left. Crouchy and Robbie should not be playing together in a derby, and frankly Garcia (who is one of my favourites) should not be playing on the left wing against strong opposition. At least not with Aurelio behind him. I'm not having a go at the boss, it's just that he's left me scratching my head. In the latter part of the second half, our game was screaming out for Bellamy. Kuyt came on and made a massive impact; Robbie should have come off for him but I know Crouchy might have been tired. While Kuyt is not exactly pacy, he is strong and very agile and looks to be very aggressive in his attacking play. Perfect attributes for the English game, and especially a Merseyside derby. I hope Rafa, after watching the match yesterday realises what in my opinion are three significant team/squad selection mistakes: playing LG on an already defensively suspect wing pairing Robbie and Crouchy when we needed at least power or pace up front and lastly, not even leaving on the bench two players who each offer both those attributes As we have seen that Gonzalez and Bellamy are tough as nuts, can run with the ball at pace, and are very hardworking defensively, they would not have been initimdated by the pace and thunder of the derby. I'm in on way hailing that they are our best players in their respective positions but for what it's worth I thought yesterday's team was crying out for them. Fair play to Moyes who worked out and effectively executed what our last opponents who gave us a mauling (scoresheet-wise) did; target Sami and isolate him into the wider areas on the counter. Mourinho used Drogba to superb effect in that manner last season at Anfield. We all dislike dogbreath with a passion, but he has both attributes and is a very good player. I think Kuyt is a player of similar style, and I'm pretty sure we'll see Dirk cement his place in the team sooner rather than later, just like the way Crouchy did last season. With all that said, onwards and upwards. Scoreline did not reflect the game, it was just one of those days. You know it when the you have Poll as ref, you're not getting the roll of the ball (deflected shot has wicked spin and rolls into space for a blue to run into), Carra fluffs at clearances Bramble/Boumsong style, Gerrard hits two posts, Aurelio gets t***tted in the face twice by his own teammates, Riise coming on as a sub and then getting injured a minute after the third and final change was made. Oh, the final straw - we give away 3 soft goals to the sh*te. All in one match. I don't wanna put the mockers on, but I think it'll only get better from here on...

Mate, you acted like a c*nt, and a stupid one too. That's the worst combination as far as aptitude and attitude go. There are a couple up-their-a*** posters here who admittedly seem to know their football, so they're only half as bad. You had two/three posts to explain yourself the way you did in your most recent one, but chose argue on about something I never really said. I think it was pretty obvious that last line was anything but a joke to anyone other than yourself. Onto cloggers; Riise has actually got excellent technique. All of it is on one foot though. Think about it; how can you play at a highest level with only one functioning kicking foot and still be clogger like? His passing isn't out of this world, but it's of a decent level. Think of the pass he made to Stevie against Boro when he scored that wonder volley. Warnock on the other hand, having watched him play many times, has a pretty decent eye for a pass, and is in my opinion a decent passer of the ball. Sami Hyypia when he played his first season for Liverpool was noted for his good passing ability and ball playing skills, so if he's down the list, I'd say we've done extremely well. In my opinion, Carra is probably closest to Sissoko in this cloggerism nonsense. Watch him play right back and his footballing limitations are exposed. However, at CB he seems to have a very calm head and is able to pick out good passes. Which leaves us with Momo. Good close control, but distribution is inconsistent. At times he can play a bit like Diao did in the away derby 2 seasons ago, when he brilliantly won tackles but gave the ball back to the sh*te as quickly. Bottom line is, the point I was trying to make was that IMHO Momo is actually the closest we have to a clogger, but very far from being one. If you'd actually properly read what I'd said the first time round, this thread wouldn't have had so much nonsensical arguing. Anyway, all water under the bridge...

You still don't get it do you?

Which I had failed to mention earlier (thinking it unnecessary), is a fair bit away. I think alot of people are being very unfair on Kromkamp. I think Finnan was ridiculed in his first season for being a bit gash defensively; look where he is right now. Anyway back to Momo; can't believe he used to be a striker! Then again, I guess we could say the same of Carra...

If I hadn't blatantly asserted that Rafa has brought in good footballers during his time BEFORE saying that Sissoko (who has excellent ball control BTW, only let down is his erratic passing) is the CLOSEST to a clogger that we have, you would have had a reason to stop reading. Therefore, I can only deduce that you are either illiterate, or just plain stupid. But then you are actually on this forum, so you can't be the former (not in the true sense of the word anyway). Now, if you actually understood that I am asserting you are the latter, then maybe there is hope for you after all...

I thought Crouchy had a pretty poor game on Sat and also in the Shield (didn't catch Haifa away), but showed excellent instincts to take both goals. Exact opposite of his performances last season. 5 goals in 4 full starts for LFC and England make great reading. Even 3 in 3 starts for LFC looks great, compared to his 0 in 19 last season! I know I'll get flamed for this but I didn't think Kromkamp was as bad as made out last weekend. FFS people were comparing him to Josemi! My first impressions of him last season was that he's a decent footballer who can still improve. I don't think he's done that bad to change my opinion. Yet. I think with Riise out people have realised what a fine defender JAR has matured into. Definitely coaching from Rafa, along with an aptitude to absorb information. I like the look of Fabio Aurelio, he'll feature in alot of home matches against the lower teams IMO. Kewell brings to the team good use of the ball from the left, and I don't think we've seen enough of Gonzalez to make any kind of assessment. But he definitely works hard and is jet-heeled!

Baros popped into my head when I made the comparison with Cisse. I think Bellamy does what Baros used to do but at a higher level. Without the head down blind alley running. I'd always had the impression that if it was Cisse and not Baros who had 18 months left on his contract, Milan would have stayed on last season ahead of Cisse. Rafa wanted shut of both anyway, but it seemed like he felt Baros was the better footballer. Then again I don't rate Cisse at all; not for what he did at LFC in the 2 seasons anyway. The Man Utd away match in Jan/Feb did it for me. Says it all really, that when asked to compare Bellamy and Cisse, Rafa said the latter "is a very fast player who scores goals by shooting very hard" and then going on to say that Craig is a different sort of a player, who can play out wide, has pace, good movement etc!

All good, was bored, wanted to bump my thread up!

When Bowyer went in on Alonso at Anfield last season, we saw Crouchy and Finnan getting involved, with Stevie also getting riled up by Shearer. Carra will always be there too. I seem to remember Alonso and Carra getting into dogbreath's face at Anfield last season in the league for a bad challenge. Garcia is always thereabouts. What bugged me in Rafa's first season was when Gerrard was still in a limbo as to whether he was gonna stick around; you always want your captain to be first in, last out when things get heated. Whether to make a case, back a teammate or cool things down. I once saw a ref book Italian goalie who ran from his area to around the halfwayline to talk to the ref and got booked; he reacted by pointing at the armband. Was hilarious, maybe it was for what he said but the reactions seemed to suggest it was for getting involved!

"There is definitely some overhyping of Dirk Kuyt, but nobody could have watched him and not be impressed with his all-round play." That simply means that I think it's justified!

Well he did do all that, didn't he?

Finally, we have a squad full of top class footballers who are excellent ball players and very hardworking. Of all the players Rafa has brought in that are still here, we could say that only Sissoko is the closest to what you'd call a clogger. Even then, he is young and will get better on the ball with more top flight football. Luis Garcia, Alonso, Aurelio and Kuyt are just a few who look the business on the ball, as well as off it. There were a few passages of play yesterday defending our penalty area when a hoof upfield was the easy route, but Aurelio and in particular Agger were excellent in playing short passes and trusting each other's close control to get out of tight situations. Agger's performance yesterday was a joy to watch. He showed intelligence and bravery, passing his way out of trouble when the moment was right, and going to ground to win tackles when it was absolutely necessary. His initiative to carry the ball out of defence was a breath of fresh air. I remember when Sami first came to LFC and looking like an excellent passer of the ball; Agger seems to be a doing this at a higher level. There is definitely some overhyping of Dirk Kuyt, but nobody could have watched him and not be impressed with his all-round play. He did everything; dropped deep, played off the shoulder of the defender, ran with the ball, took shots, attacked crosses, picked out intelligent passes, and showed great vision. Maybe he won't play as consistently well, but if you don't have quality, you couldn't make plays the way he did. Bellamy's non-stop running is so underrated, and having only watched him play 4 matches for LFC so far, I can safely say that he has contributed more to his team's build up play than Cisse did for the 2 seasons he'd been here. The angled runs, drifting out wide while pulling one or two defenders away and using his close control to get defenders thinking twice about challenges. I think it's obvious that Bellamy is doing everything that Rafa wanted from Cisse; the former does it naturally while the latter didn't have the capacity to learn. All the skill in the world is not enough if you don't work hard though, and Rafa has bought the right players. Seeing Bellamy, Kuyt and Gonzalez tracking back and winning balls nearer their own box than the halfway line is encouraging. Aurelio looks like a tough nut, and Pennant works hard to cover for when Finnan is caught forward, or doubled up by opponents. Perhaps the most telling factor of this squad is the integration of the new boys into the team: almost seamless. It's simple really, if every player has a good idea of how football should be played and you understand your role well, you gel with your teammates. With Kuyt, Pennant and Bellamy it seems to come naturally. Under Houllier, the football was at most times mechanical. With this Liverpool team, we know it is more structured from all the comments/stories about Rafa's coaching methods, but at the same time, they play instinctive football. That is the mark of a team with quality individuals who are given the licence to express their football by a coach who believes in both his methods, as well as his players' abilities. Watching the team yesterday fills me with hope and excitement for the seasons to come. I'm sure with more training sessions and competitive matches domestically as well as in Europe, the team will get even better. Mind you, I believe a certain Salif Diao is still at the club.

Thought he didn't have a very good game. His touches and passing was generally poor, but it's excusable at this stage. Still, good anticipation for the play when Garcia and him tangled for the shot, and of course, the well taken goal.

Alot are too harsh on Duff. Too many childish comments. Sure, he chose Newcastle over us, it's quite unacceptable for any player with ambitions. But, why did he leave Chelsea in the first place? He wanted first team football. If Rafa told him that he was his first choice left winger, that would have been a different story. I'm pretty sure he'd have signed. As sammya said, he'd have stayed if he wanted to increase his medal haul and compete for a place. With all that, can't really blame the lad for choosing the barcodes over us.

What about going the whole season without a booking in 01 or was that 02? For a central defender who plays week in week out at the top level, that is amazing.

This 3-5-2 business; Finnan would be excellent as a wing back too. If Kromkamp leaves we need a replacement anyway. And as I recall, Kromkamp did very welll at Newcastle last season as a wing back.

Great analysis...agree with most of it, and with DH as well that if we get both Alves and Pennant, or even Simao and Pennant, it will make THE difference in our squad. One point too, I hope Sinama will be kept on as 4th/nth choice forward this season because if we lose Bellamy to injury/suspension, our attack will be slow, like it was last season. And I think that was a key factor; we did well in spite of the lack of pacy options which changes the dynamics of a match.

Nah, they can't be unhappy. They're still the big club they are. It's just that we're just massive.

Souness and Houllier never got along that well (or was during that the season after though?) and IIRC both came out on record talking about Duf's price responding to speculation, Souness saying that we needed to pay top dollar, and Houllier saying that the price was too high...

Houllier never believed in using width, always wanted the team to play direct football. Didn't he like his teams soaking in pressure and then hitting them quickly with his pacy strikers? That seemed to be his plan A. Benitez believes in using the full dimensions of the pitch, encourages his team to play good passing football, with a lot of emphasis on possession, while also knowing the worth of the counter attack. Under Houllier our play was more hit and hope, while under Rafa it's more calculated and there seems to be a method. Day and night if you ask me. Mind you, the treble team was great, as was the second half of the next season. There were a couple of spells, namely when Smicer, Kewell and Diouf were playing in an attacking midfield three. Apart from that, the football was mediocre (that's being kind), and at times (11 league matches w/o a win) dire.

The whole style and pattern of play was poor/non-existent. Watch the England team, and then think back to the days when we couldn't string 5 passes together and spot the similarities. Except the England team of course has superior individuals. That and I'd say Eriksson and Houllier went to the same coaching school, only that Houllier has wised up and moved on (on evidence of a few matches I've seen of Lyon).

He'd be a good alternative to Crouch if Rafa thinks he's worth the money/saving. People talk about Crouchy having great feet for a tall guy, Viduka has very good touch and exceptional feet and agility for someone who's built like a tank. Technically, he's excellent and as a goalscorer he is decent. But his injury record and an apparent question mark over his hunger are the main drawbacks.

sorry...

Considering for the most of his time at LFC, his right back was a pre-leg break Carra (nonsense going forward) and his left back was a toned down Riise (nonsense in defence) who was coached to curb his attacking instincts, you could say he never thought width was important. As emphasised by some horrendous displays, such as the oft (wrongly) lauded excellent 0-0 against Sunderland where the play was so unimaginative against a team that camped in front of their goalmouth. The best chance of the day? A Danny Murphy free kick from the wing which clipped the post IIRC. That performance was a good example of the main shortcomings of Houllier's methods. The man finally realised he needed to let the players express themselves, which he did for a reasonable part of his last season. By then it was too late though. And like they say, old habits die hard: Newcastle away 1-1.

The problem with Houllier's preferred style of play up until (excluding) his last season was that it did not involve width. The players, esp Murphy and Gerrard were seemingly coached to play the quick incisive ball forward all too often, which resulted in long passes or impossible through balls being attempted, when a percentage ball out wide was the better option. Murphy was never as good as Houllier made him out to be, and I think it was in some ways an indictment of the team he assembled that we were reliant on Danny Murphy (and Stevie Gerrard of course) for a good season and a half, until Stevie came of age in the second half of 03/04.