If Rafa had complete control over transfer funds.....

[Iver]

Presumably Gareth Barry would have been our big money buy, and had we met Villa's asking price on him, I don't think we would have had enough funds to buy Robbie Keane also.

 

Maybe if Alonso had been offloaded, we might possibly have brought in both Keane and Barry, but I am not sure.

 

Rafa's treatment of Keane makes me think that he is trying to make a point, that us spending way over the odds on him was not his doing, and he would have much rathered the money to have been spent elsewhere.

 

Was Rafa's hand forced regarding the amount of money we spent on Keane?

 

It would be very hard to make an argument that Rafa should have complete control over future transfer funds, IF the decision to spend so big on Keane was his, considering how he has used Keane since.

 

Nobody can legislate for how poor Keane has been, but surely he is deserving of a chance to help turn stalemates into wins, ahead of the likes of N'gog and El Zhar?

 

I think Keane will be off this window if somebody is willing to pay us what we spent on him.

 

As an aside, I cannot help contrast Rafa's treatment of Kuyt with that of Keane - he has been consistently poor for going on two months, and has not provided any goal threat whatsoever, yet he is persistently selected in the team.

[gns]

All wild speculation.

 

This Barry/Keane/Parry stuff has gone from forum lore to actual fact in the space of a few days.

[Mikey]

Absolutely bizarre - Rafa buys keane, Keane doesn't fit in or play well, therefore Rafa didn't want Keane he really wanted Barry because Rafa couldn't f*** up that badly?????

 

What we really wanted was Ashley Young for the £20M+ we spent on Keane as we are still easily the weakest of the top 5 in the wide areas including fullback, and have been for as long as I can remember.

[Iver]

All wild speculation.

 

This Barry/Keane/Parry stuff has gone from forum lore to actual fact in the space of a few days.

 

I don't think it is wild speculation at all - it all makes perfect sense if you think about it rationally.

[gns]

I don't think it is wild speculation at all - it all makes perfect sense if you think about it rationally.

 

In your opening post you used the words "presumably", "think" and "maybe" !!!

 

If that isnt a sign of specualtion I dont know what is!

[Iver]

Absolutely bizarre - Rafa buys keane, Keane doesn't fit in or play well, therefore Rafa didn't want Keane he really wanted Barry because Rafa couldn't f*** up that badly?????

 

What we really wanted was Ashley Young for the £20M+ we spent on Keane as we are still easily the weakest of the top 5 in the wide areas including fullback, and have been for as long as I can remember.

 

 

NO NO NO!

 

Maybe I am not making myself clear.

 

I do think Rafa wanted Keane, but not for anything like the extraordinate price we paid for him, which it seems was beyond Rafa's control.

 

My point is that, I suspect Rafa identified Keane and Barry as his two main targets - we then paid way over the odds for Keane, and missed out on Barry as a result.

[Mikey]

I don't think it is wild speculation at all - it all makes perfect sense if you think about it rationally.

You said "Was Rafa's hand forced regarding the amount of money we spent on Keane?

 

So we had over £20M to spend and he could only spend it on Keane?????

 

"Perfect sense" and "Rationally" have no place anywhere near your post mate.

[gns]

NO NO NO!

 

Maybe I am not making myself clear.

 

I do think Rafa wanted Keane, but not for anything like the extraordinate price we paid for him, which it seems was beyond Rafa's control.

 

My point is that, I suspect Rafa identified Keane and Barry as his two main targets - we then paid way over the odds for Keane, and missed out on Barry as a result.

 

you suspect?

 

based on what?

[Rimbeux]

I think Rafa bought Keane hoping he'd recreate what he had with Berbatov with us, with Torres, and that he could get him to play any of the three positions behind a lone striker. Since he's had him up close I dont think he rates him to do the primary idea let alone any of the others. A mistake on his part, and given complete control he still would have made it

[gns]

I think Rafa bought Keane hoping he'd recreate what he had with Berbatov with us, with Torres, and that he could get him to play any of the three positions behind a lone striker. Since he's had him up close I dont think he rates him to do the primary idea let alone any of the others. A mistake on his part, and given complete control he still would have made it

 

Well if he did (and I suspect you are right) he sure aint given them a lot of chance to create that partnership.

[Rimbeux]

NO NO NO!

 

Maybe I am not making myself clear.

 

I do think Rafa wanted Keane, but not for anything like the extraordinate price we paid for him, which it seems was beyond Rafa's control.

 

My point is that, I suspect Rafa identified Keane and Barry as his two main targets - we then paid way over the odds for Keane, and missed out on Barry as a result.

 

 

What we paid for him is not relevant to how well he's done. Either he's a good buy or a bad one, I dont personally subscribe to the 'worth a punt' theory that Big Sam or Harry and also seemingly Rafa use when it comes to transfers, the one where you get quite a few decent players in, some you've seen, many on a scouts word, and see what sticks where a transfer is only really a mistake if it cost 'a lot'. It was not a leap to assume Keane would cost £20m to get out of Spurs, much if any less would be dreamin

[Cam]

He'd have bought Keane and Barry.

 

Keane would not have fitted in any better.

 

The successful Gerrard/Torres partnership from last season would have been seen even fewer times.

 

Barry would have taken some time to settle in.

 

Our player of the season Alonso wouldn't be here.

 

We'd all be talking nonsense about Gerrard's body language out on the right or defensive midfield.

 

Teams would be even harder to break down with Gerrard mis-played.

 

We'd be battling with Arsenal and Villa for 4th.

[Rimbeux]

Well if he did (and I suspect you are right) he sure aint given them a lot of chance to create that partnership.

 

 

I think he's had serious second thoughts seeing him up close every day. Maybe he's embarrassed to have him about the place or even on the pitch reminding him

[Iver]

What we paid for him is not relevant to how well he's done. Either he's a good buy or a bad one, I dont personally subscribe to the 'worth a punt' theory that Big Sam or Harry and also seemingly Rafa use when it comes to transfers, the one where you get quite a few decent players in, some you've seen, many on a scouts word, and see what sticks where a transfer is only really a mistake if it cost 'a lot'. It was not a leap to assume Keane would cost £20m to get out of Spurs, much if any less would be dreamin

 

There are no hard facts to back up what I have posted in this thread, granted.

 

But can anyone explain to me why,

 

- you would shell out 20 million (3rd highest fee spent on a player in the history of the club, and the majority of your transfer kitty), on a 29 year old, whose sell on value would obviously be significantly reduced because of his age, and then......

 

- omit him altogether from the squad for a game like today's which was obviously going to be tight, and the likelihood of our needing a bit of magic from somewhere, to turn the game in our favour was going to be high......

 

- but Keane was overlooked in favour of a rookie 19 year old French striker, who has yet to start a Premiership game for us, for a place on the bench.

 

It defies logic.

 

Have Rafa and Keane had a major bust up?

 

If not, surely it is only a question of when, after today.

 

Robbie has done himself little favours with his performances since joining, but how frustrated must he feel, and how, in turn, is this impacting upon his performances?

 

If Kuyt scored twice vs Bolton on Boxing day, that would guarantee him a first team place for the rest of the season, (academic, as it seems he does not need to score to be guaranteed a place in any event), but contrast this with Keane's treatment since then.

[Rimbeux]

There are no hard facts to back up what I have posted in this thread, granted.

 

But can anyone explain to me why,

 

- you would shell out 20 million (3rd highest fee spent on a player in the history of the club, and the majority of your transfer kitty), on a 29 year old, whose sell on value would obviously be significantly reduced because of his age, and then......

 

- omit him altogether from the squad for a game like today's which was obviously going to be tight, and the likelihood of our needing a bit of magic from somewhere, to turn the game in our favour was going to be high......

 

- but Keane was overlooked in favour of a rookie 19 year old French striker, who has yet to start a Premiership game for us, for a place on the bench.

 

It defies logic.

 

Have Rafa and Keane had a major bust up?

 

If not, surely it is only a question of when, after today.

 

Robbie has done himself little favours with his performances since joining, but how frustrated must he feel, and how, in turn, is this impacting upon his performances?

 

If Kuyt scored twice vs Bolton on Boxing day, that would guarantee him a first team place for the rest of the season, (academic, as it seems he does not need to score to be guaranteed a place in any event), but contrast this with Keane's treatment since then.

 

It's simple. Manager buys a player thinking he can do x, y and z, soon realises he was wrong when working at close quarters and is caught between giving it up as a bad one and making the best of it. With others like Kuyt he can use them in other ways than the original plan.

[gns]

There are no hard facts to back up what I have posted in this thread, granted.

 

You are lurching from one piece of speculation to another. First Rafa didnt want him, now Rafa has had a bust up with him. Make your mind up.

[Maldini]

I don't think the question is "what would have happened last summer" it's what would have happened over the last 4 years or so. How different would our team look right now if Rafa got the players he wanted? Villa, Vidic, Alves and Simao were all there to be gotten and Parry let them get away, and they're just the ones in the public sphere.

[Bromage]

There are no hard facts to back up what I have posted in this thread, granted.

 

But can anyone explain to me why,

 

- you would shell out 20 million (3rd highest fee spent on a player in the history of the club, and the majority of your transfer kitty), on a 29 year old, whose sell on value would obviously be significantly reduced because of his age, and then......

 

- omit him altogether from the squad for a game like today's which was obviously going to be tight, and the likelihood of our needing a bit of magic from somewhere, to turn the game in our favour was going to be high......

 

- but Keane was overlooked in favour of a rookie 19 year old French striker, who has yet to start a Premiership game for us, for a place on the bench.

 

It defies logic.

 

Have Rafa and Keane had a major bust up?

 

If not, surely it is only a question of when, after today.

 

Robbie has done himself little favours with his performances since joining, but how frustrated must he feel, and how, in turn, is this impacting upon his performances?

 

If Kuyt scored twice vs Bolton on Boxing day, that would guarantee him a first team place for the rest of the season, (academic, as it seems he does not need to score to be guaranteed a place in any event), but contrast this with Keane's treatment since then.

 

I think the team for Wednesday night will answer these questions. I suspect Rafa will see the need to change players for the Wigan game and MAYBE he'll bring Keane back with Torres. I agree with most people that he hasn't worked for us so far and also the fact that he's 29 means we don't have the luxury of waiting another season (a la Henri). However it's clear that the best formation is Gerrard behing Torres and it should stay that way other than, heaven forbid, one of them gets injured.

 

What seems to be more of a problem to me is that our wide players are not looking to break into the box or put in quality crosses so much if what we do is fed through the middle and that's seeming to look predictable to defences. Rafa clearly likes Kuyt but IMHO right now I'd prefer to see El Zahr & Riera than Kuyt & Babel, as I think that would at least provide us with another dimension to our attacking play.

[Kite]

It's simple. Manager buys a player thinking he can do x, y and z, soon realises he was wrong when working at close quarters and is caught between giving it up as a bad one and making the best of it. With others like Kuyt he can use them in other ways than the original plan.

It really is that simple. Nevertheless, there will always seemingly be others who will think Keane crash landed in Area 51 forty or something years ago, was re-programmed by the US Army and has been mascarading as a football player ever since etc etc etc

[Toni]

i think that any manager must have complete control of the transfer fund. the board sets the budget then the manager spends it as he wishes. either you fully trust your manager or you dont.

[Kite]

Villa, Vidic, Alves and Simao were all there to be gotten and Parry let them get away

That's just complete nonsense Maldini

[Jarg Armani]

You are lurching from one piece of speculation to another. First Rafa didnt want him, now Rafa has had a bust up with him. Make your mind up.

 

why pour water on it? original post is a question worth asking and speculating over - which some of the responses do quite well.

 

in my opinion.

[lawrie]

I don't think the question is "what would have happened last summer" it's what would have happened over the last 4 years or so. How different would our team look right now if Rafa got the players he wanted? Villa, Vidic, Alves and Simao were all there to be gotten and Parry let them get away, and they're just the ones in the public sphere.

 

I dont think we ever had a realistic chance of getting Villa, he definately wants to stay in Spain. Simao though would have been particulalrly nice (although in fairness it could also easily have been Malouda)

[Jarg Armani]

Alves though. Wonder whether Benitez wanted him and got told a similar thing by de powers dat be,

 

"we don't think this fullback is worth 14m, we're getting you kuyt bellamy and pennant instead"

Edited January 25, 2009 by Jarg Armani

[Maldini]

That's just complete nonsense Maldini

 

How is it? We were in for all of them, we were in earlier than anyone else for most of them as well, then Parry takes a f***in age to get it done and it all falls apart.