yellow jumper

further proof that john terry's s***, and england miss scholes.

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think he might end up in the scholes role.

this kind of thing goes on all the time. ferguson particularily has left players out, and then concocted some ridiculous injury smokescreen in his interviews after the game, when it's obvious to all and sundry they've been dropped because of poor form or discipline. even if mclaren took what he thought was the easy option, it hasn't worked. there's a s*** storm anyway.

and alan curbishley looked a good manager until someone gave him a cheque book... not sure that's something that should be held against mclaren. anyway, i think most of the really flamboyant spending occured under robson. and other than maccarone, mclaren used the money he had pretty well: yakubu, geremi, viduka, hasselbaink, boateng (i think) off the top of my head... plus youth products like downing, bates, taylor, davies, morrison, parnaby, johnson, and cattermole all given their chance. on that basis you're going to be eliminating a few strong candidates for the england job. you can argue about the appointment (and it certainly isn't one i would of made) but having got the job he hasn't been given even half a chance to show he can do it. with a long history of winning next to nothing and destroying their managers, you'd think the fans and media in this country would have got real by now. would any club sack a manager in a similar scenario? the scrutiny and criticism is at stupid levels, most of the ingerlund press and by extension many of the fans, deserve everything they get.

fair point. i agree. that's a problem that lies with the fa, though. agree too that mclaren does generally play pretty conservative, and often dull football. but then so do some 'special' mangers. italy and greece have hardly won recent tournaments playing enthralling stuff.

who should play down the left then?

it would only take two poor or average gerrard performances before they were crowing for lampard to be included it at his expense.

there are elements of luck in all the substitutions you mention. benitez and mourinho are obviously better managers than mclaren. it doesn't mean you have to dismiss everything good he's done as fool's gold. i wasn't suggesting he throw three forwards onto the pitch against israel, i was just making a point about the confidence he had boro compared to the lack of it in the national job. they are respectable (which was my original claim) league positions for a club like boro. he did a decent, if unspectacular job there, particularily when you consider that it was his first job, and add in the cups runs and development of young players. o'neill in comparison finished 9th, 10th, 10th, 8th, 8th with leicester. after two seasons in the championship allardyce finished 16th, 16th, 17th, 8th, 6th, 8th and has won nothing. i'm not saying mclaren's a brilliant manager, i'm not even saying he's a very good one, and i'm not really bothered about england. but from a dispassionate viewpoint it seems that there are more critical problems for the national team, than the fact that they just hired the wrong man. mclaren's record bares comparison with those it is now assumed could do a much better job than him. and in terms of experience he's a much younger manager. perhaps if the fa, media, and fans invested more realism and faith in the way they supported the team they'd get better results.

he wouldn't have been out of a job, gibson might be a fool, but he's proven to be a loyal chairman, and mclaren was hardly failing by previous standards. what he did in througout the uefa cup is no different to what mourinho did against spurs in the recent 3-3. and what he should have done against israel last week. to make those decisions takes huge confidence, unfortunately for england their blundering fa quite apart from failing to find a man willing to make these calculated gambles in the face of the inevitable media feeding frenzy if it goes wrong, seem intent on undermining their chosen candidate at every turn.

pretty sure they finished as high as 7th. and were always comfortable. they'd previosuly been relegation fodder.

o'neil's a good manager. i think he's a little over-rated though. what he achieved at celtic isn't that impressive, given what strachan's done with arguably less talent since, or mcleish did at rangers over the same period. think on the face of it mclaren did more in getting boro to an uefa cup final, but somehow gets far less credit. it's one of the reasons that o'neil would have made a much better england manager. not just boro fans either. no ones going to say they rather have mclaren. nor should they. but you can't just write off what he's achieved. there were boos at villa park the day we played o'neil's latest masterpiece; 11 men behind the ball, and however million pounds worth of striking talent looking pretty toothless. it's wrong to paint o'neil as some kind of miracle worker, and mclaren as a total know-nothing. mclaren was in an invidious position from the start with england, because of a bungling fa and his association with sven. apart from that he probably isn't ready for the job, but that doesn't make him incompetent.

he achieved respectable league positions, won a league cup, took 'boro into europe and to a european final. in the context of thier history i think that qualifies as considerably more than diddly. he's won trophies with celtic. but never achieved what gordon strachan has in the champions' league. he's a good manager, but ridiculously over-rated. villa could still go down, and he's already spent s*** loads.

yeah, it's better, but it's also longer (as a manager, at least). mclaren's record's made to look better than it was by the uefa cup final, too. he did do a lot more in terms of developing youth than o'neil though. the point i've been trying to make all along is that it boils down to man management more than anything else. and the likes of redknapp, o'neil, allardyce have all shown they can handle big names and difficult personalities, whereas mclaren has never really proven that despite all the coaching accolades.

of course not. i just think the criteria by which you select an international manager shouldn't neccessarily be the same as those by which you'd select a club manger. o'neil leaves coaching to his coaches, picks a basic tactic to suit his personnel and commands respect by force of personality. that's it. despite a pretty poor season at villa all-in-all (and a record at english clubs in general that doesn't compare that favourably with mclaren), you hear very few grumbles because he's shown he can make an instant impact and carries the majority of players, fans and media with him.

which all goes to show that it's less about the sort of day-to-day coaching and managing job these men do at their clubs, and more about handling superstars, pressure and media, and making unequivocal decisions.

don't think garcia was having a great season before his injury, and i'd begun to give up on him as anything more than a squad player at about the time of the defeat at old trafford. but i'm not sure we can afford to lose a major goal threat from midfield given how toothless the rest of them look. how much would it cost to replace what he gives us?

ideally the england manager will have seen action at a really big club, if only to know they have the balls for the sort of pressure they're going to be under.

just think after a lot of hype they were expecting something with more character, sense of awe. i wasn't there so can't really comment, perhaps that sort of thing only comes with time, bigger games, bigger crowds. they compared it unfavourably with the san siro.

everything you say is fair enough, although i do think you're overstating the difference that any of it might have made. playing warnock, baines or barry at left back would have been a risk. i don't think it was a heinous mistake to begin the game with what he consided a 'safe' XI against an israel side with a decent home record. think he could have done better with his subs.

they have ever since carsley returned, and/or hibbert got injured. so with barry and downing in the team england would have performed much better? i think carragher was a conservative choice, and could have perhaps been subbed after an hour for a more attacking option, but he played well. a player like lennon can play on the left no problem, just as the likes of pires and ronaldo do. he's not at their level, but was able to put a couple of crosses in with his left foot, and showed he could go both inside and outside his marker. good performance.

how were they disorganised? they controlled the game for eighty minutes of the ninety, dominated possession and created three or four clear chances. think people have unrealistic expectations. you and i might have picked a different team, but lennon regularily plays on the left for spurs, carragher spent a season at left back, gerrard roams from right mid for liverpool, neville's an experienced right back.

think to be an international manager, particularly england's, the three most important things to have are instant respect, strength of character and tactical acumen. you hardly see the players, so a mild-mannered 'coach' like mclaren is always going to be up against it.

referee's in s*** for celebrating one of ajax's goals