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The Middle Class


Swan Red

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So seems like middle class is used in a significantly different way now than it used to be and is class mobility really different now or are we working class people convinced we've joined the middle class because we can afford stuff.

 

who the f*** was Obama talking to? How does a waged employee not be working class?

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I think the phrase 'middle class' in the UK and USA has completely different cultural, social and economic connotations.

 

Personally, a lot of the elements of my life are probably very middle class, but my attitudes and outlook remain working class.

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See I think that's the case they probably equate working class with communism or something but what elements are middle class, do the standards set for middle class culture remain or is it just that previously middle class pursuits and interests have been introduced to a wider audience.

 

Like if I work and manage no one and rely solely on my salary for an income that's working class right? If I earn 50k in an office or 50k on a building site it's the same wage is one inherently more middle class?

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See I think that's the case they probably equate working class with communism or something but what elements are middle class, do the standards set for middle class culture remain or is it just that previously middle class pursuits and interests have been introduced to a wider audience.

 

Like if I work and manage no one and rely solely on my salary for an income that's working class right? If I earn 50k in an office or 50k on a building site it's the same wage is one inherently more middle class?

It's incredibly nebulous, who can really be considered a 'professional' these days? Is an engineer somehow more respectable than a tiler?

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It's incredibly nebulous, who can really be considered a 'professional' these days? Is an engineer somehow more respectable than a tiler?

 

This is it just because the type of work a lot of people do has changed as a result of advances in technology it doesn't change the class composition of society as much as people think.

 

I had a disagreement with someone who considered me middle class about 5 years ago and it resurfaced with someone else who's criteria seems to be if you work in an office you're middle class which is obviously silly. Especially given he considered himself the only working class person in the company despite giving work up for horticulture.

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See I think that's the case they probably equate working class with communism or something but what elements are middle class, do the standards set for middle class culture remain or is it just that previously middle class pursuits and interests have been introduced to a wider audience.

 

Like if I work and manage no one and rely solely on my salary for an income that's working class right? If I earn 50k in an office or 50k on a building site it's the same wage is one inherently more middle class?

One time you could point at most people and say 'they're working class' and 'they're middle class'. With the demise of industrial Britain, it's far harder to do so. The old A/B/C1/C2/D/E categories seem to have fallen out of use now too.

 

Sociologists might say there are certain factors which define our class, but is it relevant to our political discourse when so many politicians shy away from it? I'm thinking aloud here - I would say that it is when we want to define how certain policies are affecting groups of people, but the key factor is whether those being talked about recognise themselves in the description. That's why they fall back on that 'hard-working families' b******s...

 

To get back to your questions, it's about norms. People who drive certain cars, live in certain areas, eat certain foods, go on holiday to certain places...etc.

 

It's a combination of attitudes and circumstances. I didn't become middle class by living in Maida Vale and buying organic free range eggs. I stayed working class because I still intrinsically have a certain outlook on life and my labour is all I have to support me.

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To get back to your questions, it's about norms. People who drive certain cars, live in certain areas, eat certain foods, go on holiday to certain places...etc.

 

 

It's an intriguing question - never really been sure about the definition.

 

How would you define a self-made millionaire from a poor background, relatively little education and no real political outlook.

 

Is it the wealth, the background or the politics? A combination of the above?

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What is the difference between the middle class and working class outlook?

 

 

It's difficult to be that broad, because there's always been a good number of non socialist Tory voting working class people. Christ knows why, I think it's to do with forelock tugging deference which to me stems from having a monarchy (in concept at least). As long as people have someone they're supposed to show deference too, they're controllable. The Tories, especially this current shower basically replaced the feudal arisotcracy. Shut up and work for me.

 

It's not the same in mainland Europe, they didn't have the same destruction of the workign classes as we've seen. As I see it now, we have a sizable underclass, with no real hope of social mobility, being labelled 'Chavs' and 'scroungers'. Then you've got everyone else in a large middle, with the hugely wealthy pulling the strings at the top.

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It's not the same in mainland Europe, they didn't have the same destruction of the workign classes as we've seen. As I see it now, we have a sizable underclass, with no real hope of social mobility, being labelled 'Chavs' and 'scroungers'.

I know it's a bit of a diversion but this 'strivers v scroungers' rhetoric that has become accepted terminology in today's political discourse is f*cking obscene.

 

I will never understand this tory attitude of blaming the poor for their own poverty.

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It's difficult to be that broad, because there's always been a good number of non socialist Tory voting working class people. Christ knows why, I think it's to do with forelock tugging deference which to me stems from having a monarchy (in concept at least). As long as people have someone they're supposed to show deference too, they're controllable. The Tories, especially this current shower basically replaced the feudal arisotcracy. Shut up and work for me.

There's always been a strain of working class conservatism. Especially from the 'self-made' types who said 'I worked hard to get what I have and overcome my circumstances, so why can't everyone else?'

 

These are the worst kind of all.

 

I know it's a bit of a diversion but this 'strivers v scroungers' rhetoric that has become accepted terminology in today's political discourse is f*cking obscene.

 

I will never understand this tory attitude of blaming the poor for their own poverty.

It's entirely rational, from their point of view. If you admitted that the poor weren't to blame for their own poverty, you'd be halfway to admitting that the government ought to do something to help them. Which would be the end of the world, clearly.

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There's always been a strain of working class conservatism. Especially from the 'self-made' types who said 'I worked hard to get what I have and overcome my circumstances, so why can't everyone else?'

 

These are the worst kind of all.

 

 

Yep. Normo Tebbs.

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The quote below from Redwood in this article says it all about the Tories and their attitude to the less well off. Pure callousness.

 

However, Tories blamed the culture of poor people rather than betting companies for exploiting them. John Redwood, the Conservative MP for Wokingham in Berkshire, which has three betting shops, said he had been surprised by the spread of bookmakers in poorer areas.

 

"I put it down to the fact that poor people believe there's one shot to get rich. They put getting rich down to luck and think they can take a gamble," he said.

 

"They also have time on their hands. My voters are too busy working hard to make a reasonable income."

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There's always been a strain of working class conservatism. Especially from the 'self-made' types who said 'I worked hard to get what I have and overcome my circumstances, so why can't everyone else?'

 

These are the worst kind of all.

 

 

 

The 80's was full of these. I love the fact that they still vote Tory even though they've a. Got f*** all now and b. it's not in their interests.

Hyacinth Bouquets.

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Redwood is a c***.

 

'Poor people think....'

 

Seriously, like?

 

Which reminds me, I've got Chavs by Owen Jones sitting on my shelf waiting to be read.

 

But am gonna read that one about the Hundred Year Old Man and the window or whatever it is first.

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