aka Dus

Italy have been on of my favourite teams for years - since 82 and Tardelli and the classic blue shirts, through Italia 90 (a crap tournament for football but great for the World Cup experience), Roberto Baggio and Paolo Maldini etc etc. But this team did lack a gloss, an allure. There are no true superstars, not even Cannavaro and though he, Buffon, perhaps Zambrotta, perhaps Pirlo deserve the highest honour I found it hard to be enraptured by the Italian team as I was before, even with the perception of gamesmanship and spitefulness that sometimes follows them through the years. Grosso certainly exagerrated his fall in the Neill incident but I think the fault lies more with Neill there despuite Grosso's over-reaction. To be honest it was most likely a (not so straightforward but still accidental) collision which had I been ref I probably would have waved play on.

And they say we are the sentimentalists... I still haven't found that picture of the United fans at Ground Zero with that grossly inappropriate "United By Tragedy" banner linking Munich to 9/11. If proof were ever needed...

Again, Materazzi prob didn't do his research. The Muslim Zidane of French/Algerian background, not looking as dark as for argument sake Noureddine Morceli, the 'ignorant' (in his own words) Materazzi probably thought he was on the money with that one... If he said it at all.

By your own definition of Pretty boys "racism" further back in this thread (please don't draw attention to my own innate racism by having placing the word in inverted commas), Materrazi's words (if reported accurately) to Zidane seem to have been prejudiced by his pre-conceived ideas about North African Muslims. So, racist then.

I won't disagree that it's good to see Cannavaro achieve something so monumental. It's a shame that his team mate is such a spiteful weasel of a player or that the league he plays in is riddled to the core by corruption. Such things erode the good will of the neutral in these situations. The rest is your subjective opinion.

It still wouldn't surprise me if Adidas leaked this shirt on purpose to throw the pirates off the scent.

But your deduction that me refraining from burning Zidane is based on a lack of hero role models in my life isn't childish. You have been supporting Italy in the tournament your judgement is clearly just as colored as mine. I actually had no great preference between the teams on Sunday but to see a prick like Materazzi win out over a legend like Zidane flies counter to how I like sporting contests resolved.

FFS will you listen to yourself. Not one person in this thread has defended Zidane from the criticism he's received. Condmenation of Materazzi goes hand in hand with criticism of Zidane because what he said were almost certainly the words of a vvanker, a prick and a cheat. You didn't like Zidane the person/icon before the incident - many of us didn't like Materazzi. It's not that difficult to see the forces at work here. Or are you simply intent on drawing other posters into a purile debate in order that you can play a race card again?

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Not as pathetic as your apparent delight at having an opportunity to put the boot into one of the greatest players you'll ever have the good fortune to see. You can dislike him if you want and really, who cares why you do. But it's good IMO that more seem willing to condemn his action but not the man.

You don't disappoint me, you just confirm my suspsicions.

Can any lip readind non-racist non-Francophiles confirm this I wonder so that we can hope that it might prove to be submissable evidence for the c***ery of Materazzi?

And there's more... According to some news stuff:

That does sound like total BS though.

Here's the sequel to the terrorist comment: What Marco said next: "I Hope Jean suffered" Jean Varraud waZidane's first trainer and Zidane consideredim his second father. He died just before the d Cup started from a long cancer battle.

Watch out with the generalisations there Gilps. There's a petard lurking around here somewhere. Italy have always been one of my favourite teams possibly because of 1990 (even though they beat Ireland, it was a formative experience for football in Europe I think), possibly bvecause 1982 was the first football game I remember watching live and despite their sometimes negative reputation at times I have always admired them. Funny thing is that this Italian team has been one of the least likeable, or admirable for many years and I have been saying that for the whole world cup. There's nobody I immediately warm to, even Canavaro and no real superstars except for maybe Cannavaro and Buffon. And this match fixing thing has put people right off them.

I'mnot speaking on Pretty Boy's behalf, he seems to be digging a bit of a hole for himself there. But I think what most people based the reasoning of a racist comment on was the violence and speed of Zidane's reaction. It's reasonable to assume that he wouldn't react that way if it had been your common or garden on-pitch 'banter'. (Does me putting 'banter' in apostrophes give people negative connotations as to my personality I wonder?) Real football fans won't. People whose involvement and genuine interest in football extends to chats around the water cooler and being the pub bore might.

No real football fans will remember him that way. Regarding Materazzi, my regard has nothing to do with him being Italian and everything to do with him being a dirty cheating prick.

I believe 4 of David Beckham's PR people are frantically preparing a DVD of "My naughtiest moments on a football pitch" for immediate release to not only capitalise on this new trend, but to ensure too much attention is not taken away from him and his 'brand'.

That's a dangerous road you're advocating sport to go down. You should really think it through before believing you really want that to happen.

It was. ZZ never asked nor wanted to be portrayed as the saviour of French society, nor the 'acceptable face' of Islam or the other PR taglines attached to him consciously or uconsiously over the last 10 years. In fact he always appeared to me to be shy man somewhat ill at ease with his iconic status. And as his own man, I wouldn't even be sure he'll lose an inordinate amount of sleep over what he did yesterday. How others judge it is dareIsay more of a comment on them and the context its judged in (ie overly-PC, their nationality etc) than the relative moral value of his act.

I agree with you to some extent. It's a Shakespearean denoument but it's far from the mark of the man. His defining moment was always ever going to be 1998, even if he'd scored a hat trick in a 7-0 win last night. He's had his dark moments, we knew about that before last night too. There's nobody said yet the red wasn't justified and he certainly shouldn't have reacted like that. However if it turns out that Materazzi (Maternazi?) said "Vaffanculo back to your tent you pi55 smelling sand ni66ger" or something like that, I know whose side I will be on in the long run. If it turns out that Materazzi said nothing much then I will still detest Materazzi as a sly prick and I will still revere ZZ as one of the greatest players ever - because that is both deserve to be.

Would you not be quiet? You've embarrassed yourself with your comments earlier in the thread and now you've forgotten ZZ played in Italy for 5 years. Let the grown ups talk about this and you remain in your ivory tower sticking pins into your ZZ voodoo doll.

Thank you big brained boring accountancy people. ;-)

The Guardian is hideously white. The financial times is hidesouly salmon. etc etc