Mascherano

Thats the end of that then. Thanks for addressing the points, btw.

Xabi Alonso certainly does not have the ability to influence games in a way that Roy Keane did or Javier Mascherano has started to. If he was able to shine in most games, we wouldn't be having this debate. I do forsee however that you will claim that all is rosy in the garden and that Xabi has been doing fantastically well. If that is the case we should start a poll. Is Xabi Alonso able to be as consistently immense in games as Javier Mascherano? That question would put it Xabi's consistency within the context of this thread. I haven't seen the OPTA stats of which you speak. If we are looking at tackles made and tackles successfully made, pull up those old stats for when they have both played so I can have a look and discount all of the stats before Javier Mascherano arrived because as you point out, I am "claiming he is a lesser defensive midfielder" THAN JAVIER MASCHERANO. After your point about the OPTA stats that I have addressed you suggest that I have an inability to understand what Alonso brings to the team in the context of what Woodsyla has said. Thank you for mentioning the OPTA stats as they seem important to you, so lets have a look at those for Mascherano and Xabi for the back end of last season when Rafa let Xabi play in the same side. Alternatively, lets look at the last 10 games each and compare? I don't know what we will make off it, but it may be interesting. I understood from Woodsyla that if we give Xabi space he will hurt you with his passing. I answered that by saying that he had not shown an ability to do that consistently. I have obviously seen games where he has done brilliantly, but as time has gone on in his Liverpool career I have seen many average performances. I would therefore descibe his consistency in this area as good, but not exceptional. Next, he is being closed down and drags opposition players out of position allowing others more room. Opposition players can do this very well, he can be reduced to this defensive midfielder role and not the defensive playmaker role where he is more comfortable and his lack of mobility, lack of pace and consistency make him less of a player than Mascherano. Mascherano will influence most of the games that he plays in. He will stop them and he will be effective with the ball. He is the type of player needed if we are to win the title. You are fooling yourself if you think that Xabi Alonso is in Mascherano's class as a defensive midfielder in the premiership. Note, Xabi would be a better defensive playmaker but that would only work where he was not closed down mercilessly game after game. Javier Mascherano played to the Copa America final mid July and did not return with the rest of the squad. He has played in two games and been fabulous in both. The point that those posters make about Xabi playing now over Mascherano is therefore dense beyond comprehension. "You deign to suggest teams rarely, if ever, consider how to "cancel" out Masch". How very considerate of you. I take your point that that consideration does not diminish him and raise you an 'its because they can't and they can with Alonso'. I await your response, if you deign to make one, with expectation. You are obviously the leader and the other lot are your bum boys.

1. Arbeloa 2. Mascherano 3. Kuyt

He has shown that he has the ability. He has not shown consistency, even in games where he does have slightly more room. Its not good enough having one without the other.

Kaizer wrote. "Gilberto scored a lot more, he actually scored 10 goals in 34 matches last season, but a lot of them were penalties" Goals is goals, uncle mike. Thanks Kaizer.

You don't want to answer my question but I will answer yours. When Xabi's space is restricted, ie the longer range passing aspect removed as highlighted earlier in the thread -V- Spurs, he is reduced to being a keep things ticking over type player,a defensive midfielder who is limited by his lack of pace and movement. Once you have removed him from defensive playmaker into defensive midfielder you must compare him one on one with Javier Mascherano's ability to play that role who, in my view, has the potential to be the number one player in world football in that position. Gerrards great form has bossed that midfield. Xabi's presence has been almost incidental. Now answer the questions that I posed.

I can only think that you are of the opinion that he is consistent but at a lower level than was certainly the case in his first season when he had more time on the ball. Thats not to say I am judging him on his passes, I am saying that the time and space allowing him to demonstrate an impressive array of passing covered up the weaknesses now being exposed by closing him down. As for Gilberto and Makalele, I don't know. Ask Kaiser, he is the man when it comes to that sort of thing. Xabi is a defensive playmaker, so I would disagree that those players would represent an accurate comparison in any event. Reina and Carra both had poor starts last season but they are consistently good, along with Gerrard, Finnan and Agger. Alonso is a good player with quality but he has struggled for consistency for the reasons that I have outlined previously.

My point is centred on fitness. It is the start of the season where one player has played an international tournament during the summer. Its not like everyone is fit and ready and we are deciding who is to play the most important game of the season is it? It was probably only a decision based on consistency anyway.

All he has to do is learn how to be consistent. I wonder if his lack of pace and mobility will allow him to be the dominant force that influences game after game? I don't see it myself. A few goals would be nice from a creative player too. We have discussed cancelling Xabi Alonso out of the game. Tell me your views on how to cancel out Javier Mascherano? Tell me about your perception of Javier Mascherano's consistency?

I know wat we will do Gary, we'll get uncle Sniffpick to make a claim that he couldn't possibly know within a short time frame and if he guesses wrong then his point is worthless..... I would be quite happy to see how the season progresses as a whole and then we can re examine the issue of who is the back up, if we MUST impose a time frame. .

In what way? He is behind in the fitness stakes and needs to play at some point to get match fit.

Copa America. Please don't make me have to bring it up again.

You seem to be interpreting me in a way that suits you. I am not judging Xabi by how many long passes he makes. I am saying that the opposition are not allowing him the opportunity to do it and that the player that remains after taking that away is inferior to Javier Mascherano. If Alonso were able to find that space or play against an opponent who would allow that space I would want him in the middle WITH Mascherano and I would play Steve on the right. Gerrard and Mascherano are our best central midfield pairing. Someone earlier said that Gerrard would have to drop deep like he did with Hamann. A Mascherano/Hamann comparison is flawed. Mascherano's mobility and passing ability make that likeness a ridiculous comparison, IMO.

You either do it or you don't. There is little value in investigating why you were left to deal because, as is said above, you either do it or you don't. If it hadn't been for Carra..... if we had proper wingers for Xabi to pass to...... Stevie G benefits from the space left by those closing Xabi down.....

I think that Gerrard has shown alot of maturity in his play. He is a player with pace and power. He would not be closed down as often and he would make space for himself and be in a position to pick a pass in a way that Xabi cannot, as Xabi is not blessed with Steve Gerrards physical strengths. I do agree with the point that Gerrard is great at opening up defences with first time balls and crosses. If Xabi was able to take his time and pick passes he would be great but this is the premiership.

Gerrard can be closed down but his explosive power and pace would make that ploy less effective. If two players were closing Xabi down your point might make sense. We are playing a team, Woodsyla. Gerrard would benefit more from Xabi's quality if his mobility was better rather than relying on the opposition's ability to take Xabi out of the game to allow him (Gerrard) more space. Gerrard would be thinking, imposing this ridiculous logic "hey, their closing Xabi down to make him way less effective, it doesn't matter that he will be less effective because I've got more space. Thanks Xabi!"

They have certainly worked out how to make Xabi less effective,imo. I think that your point that you haven't seen enough of Gerrard and Mascherano together is a perfectly reasonable thing to say. Getting the best out of both would be great for everyone.

Agree with that. That clip is probably an example to every manager in the league on how not to play Xabi. Big pieces of grass around the player are a no no. And before someone says "but there is this one bit where he does a nice bit of skill to make space for himself before passing", I know, I watched it. He is closed down regularly in games now.

Being new, I've got meself confused. I thought it ranked alongside other forum conventions such as, Thou shall accept that Xabi has no equal... Thou shall never critisise Crouch.... The clique police shall ensure compliance. 'Lamps' makes me shudder though, so point taken.

Quality passing. I hope managers don't start instructing their players to close him down to reduce his impact on the game with that passing.

It doesn't go unnoticed by me. However, I would find it difficult to accept an arguement that Xabi's ball winning is in the same league as Mascherano's. As for being our most effective distributor of the ball, I again disagree. I think the number 8 takes that. Additionally, Mascherano was initially quite rusty after so much time in the wilderness at WHU, but his passing is frankly very good and his extra mobility means he is not caught in possession very often either. On the occassions where he has possession taken from him, he often wins the ball back anyway with an amazing defensive display.

My apologies. As my post counter reaches into the hundreds I'm sure my compliance with forum conventions will improve.

It seems to me like opposition managers have worked out that Xabi needs time on the ball. He is relatively slow. I think he would be really great if he played in a league where he had more time on he ball. His confidence may have dropped because he is relentlessly being closed down. That may have affected him. However, he is only being closed down because he is capable, but without time and space he is considerably less effective with his passing.

Arbeloa has the advantage of being consistently good and making the most of what he has to offer. Therefore, although Xabi may have more quality his consistency drags him back to sharing the same bracket of 'good'. Thats only my opinion though. We'll just agree to disagree.