It's just got fun in the barca game

[Ombudsam]

Eto'os storming off and barca pen

 

buried

Edited February 25, 2006 by sammya

[Guest Xabi_Alonso]

racist chanting discraceful

[Ombudsam]

barca won 2-0 in the end with eto'o setting up the second and the monkey chanters of Zaragoza were left to mull over what to do with the rest of their oversized plantains.

 

Why did sammy get so upset? Having no boundaries in football and chanting whatever you want while generalising about masses of people who you've never met is what makes the game great.

 

*eagerly awaits the argument that revelling in the death of innocents is alright but racism is wrong wrong wrong*

[Benitez]

did he spit at someone?

[Ombudsam]

did he spit at someone?

 

Yes. About 2 months ago against bilbao. The zaragoza fans must have taken offence to it.

[Knox_Harrington]

*eagerly awaits the argument that revelling in the death of innocents is alright but racism is wrong wrong wrong*

Don't like the Munich chanting or Shipman stuff but here goes...

 

....racism is part of a sickness of society as a whole and therefore has to be stamped out immediately in all public places. Racism isn't specific to football grounds and has its most violent expression on a very regular basis well outside of football grounds (i.e. nothing to do with football). Liverpool/Manchester inter-city rivalry isn't specific to football grounds either but is most vorciforously felt inside football grounds (with the terrible exception of a friend of a friend of mine who was killed in Manchester after being attacked for being a Scouser a couple of years ago [interestingly enough not given equivalent coverage to Alan Smith's ambulance inside The Guardian]) or at the very least around football. I'm speaking as a Liverpool man who enjoys spending time in Manchester but hates Manchester United. I'm speaking as a man who has seen people in Manchester United shirts walk around Liverpool city centre. The equivalent is what? Being a KKK member in full get up in Toxteth?

 

Had Alan Smith's ambulance got what it got (whatever that was) in Madrid/Barca there would be much less serious coverage in the news, Madrid would not rush to condemn it nor would Barca and everyone would accept it as part of football life. Oh, those fiery Latinos. In that thread I agree with Ostrich Man and Anny essentially that it's a storm in a s*** cup.

[Ombudsam]

Don't like the Munich chanting or Shipman stuff but here goes...

 

....racism is part of a sickness of society as a whole and therefore has to be stamped out immediately in all public places. Racism isn't specific to football grounds and has its most violent expression on a very regular basis well outside of football grounds (i.e. nothing to do with football). Liverpool/Manchester inter-city rivalry isn't specific to football grounds either but is most vorciforously felt inside football grounds (with the terrible exception of a friend of a friend of mine who was killed in Manchester after being attacked for being a Scouser a couple of years ago [interestingly enough not given equivalent coverage to Alan Smith's ambulance inside The Guardian]) or at the very least around football. I'm speaking as a Liverpool man who enjoys spending time in Manchester but hates Manchester United. I'm speaking as a man who has seen people in Manchester United shirts walk around Liverpool city centre. The equivalent is what? Being a KKK member in full get up in Toxteth?

 

Had Alan Smith's ambulance got what it got (whatever that was) in Madrid/Barca there would be much less serious coverage in the news, Madrid would not rush to condemn it nor would Barca and everyone would accept it as part of football life. Oh, those fiery Latinos. In that thread I agree with Ostrich Man and Anny essentially that it's a storm in a s*** cup.

 

First of all, sorry for what happened to your friend.

 

Put the alan smith stuff to one side. It's not up there with the others.

 

Personally for me it comes down to human decency. Maybe it's because i view a lot of things through an individualistic framework where the individual is responsible for what they do. I look at a human being and think how can you rejoice in the death of an innocent or at the very least someone who did nothing to you because they died in a tragedy? Which part of your humanity has switched off not to be concerned about the hurt it causes to those who remain or are emotionally attached. Twinned with this I also look at a human being and think which part of them can dehumanise and abuse another human being soley because of pigmentation. It's the same coin for me.

 

I know you isolated racism as a societal ill and thus has greater ramifications and your point would carry more intellectual weight than mine, but for me i can't get past looking at a person who does either of those things and wondering how. I also accept i've never been neglected by the GMP.

[Knox_Harrington]

First of all, sorry for what happened to your friend.

Forget all that straight away. Didn't mention it for that sort of reaction.

Personally for me it comes down to human decency. Maybe it's because i view a lot of things through an individualistic framework where the individual is responsible for what they do. I look at a human being and think how can you rejoice in the death of an innocent or at the very least someone who did nothing to you because they died in a tragedy? Which part of your humanity has switched off not to be concerned about the hurt it causes to those who remain or are emotionally attached. Twinned with this I also look at a human being and think which part of them can dehumanise and abuse another human being soley because of pigmentation. It's the same coin for me.

 

I know you isolated racism as a societal ill and thus has greater ramifications and your point would carry more intellectual weight than mine, but for me i can't get past looking at a person who does either of those things and wondering how. I also accept i've never been neglected by the GMP.

What it comes down to for me is quite simple. If I were going tomorrow I would sing:

 

"Manchester is full of s****..."

 

And just then, just in that moment I'd f***ing mean it. I'd mean it as a man who would list a Manchester pub in his top ten WORLDWIDE, who has friends in Manchester, who loves the Cornerhouse and has happily wandered around the city on occasional afternoons. But I'd mean it. After the FA Cup game a close reasonable friend of mine texted me the following "I hope the M62 f***ing blows up". He meant it. But he doesn't mean it.

 

Away from the game, yes you'll get d****eads as you do in every walk of life but the vast, vast majority of people can walk away from it. Those songs in all honesty shouldn't be sung. They are out of order and I don't like it. However, like the Alan Smith thing, I'm not going to get precious about it and it's the press (as ever) around the Alan Smith thing that have f***ed me off.

 

I think also, being from Liverpool, you get used to all the s***. To use another anecdote (and I regret using the first one but anyway...) I went to university in Sheffield where, one night, I had Hillsborough referred to me by a policeman. Not giving the quote because I can't be having with the indignation from people but it was despicable. Newsflash - Scousers often aren't very popular around this country (read the Football Guardian for five minutes). In other news: Scousers and Mancs don't get on. However as long as it stays in a football ground then I couldn't care less.

 

To get into murkier ground (and I'm not going too far into it) the tragedies referred to have iconic resonance - they are Liverpool FC/Manchester United specific. If Michael Shields was just a Scouser then it wouldn't be mentioned. But because he was a Liverpool supporter and a Scouser it is mentioned. This doesn't make it right, doesn't mean I like it or want these songs sung. But it's why they are sung. The anomaly to that is Shipman (and I'm not going into why thats the case for fear of insulting/offending people with the explanation).

 

Don't know if I'm making my point but my mind is going a little slowly.

[Ombudsam]

Don't know if I'm making my point but my mind is going a little slowly.

 

I think I largely get your point and sympathise* with it.

 

But where you say

 

I think also, being from Liverpool, you get used to all the s***. To use another anecdote (and I regret using the first one but anyway...) I went to university in Sheffield where, one night, I had Hillsborough referred to me by a policeman. Not giving the quote because I can't be having with the indignation from people but it was despicable. Newsflash - Scousers often aren't very popular around this country (read the Football Guardian for five minutes). In other news: Scousers and Mancs don't get on. However as long as it stays in a football ground then I couldn't care less.

 

I understand your sentiment but I also think don't think that all of those people who chanted at eto'o are what some would call them I doubt they are even all racist. They've found a way to get to a barcelona player but i don't think once they leave the stadium they find other races unacceptable. In that sense it is a problem that stays within football and within the ground. I just think it's c***.

 

Anyway you've answered the questions I wanted answering which i appreciate and you also said more than once that you don't like the songs so I don't want to seem like I'm attempting to badger anyone into demanding the blood of those who've sung those song.

 

*in the proper sense of the word.

[Knox_Harrington]

I think I largely get your point and sympathise* with it.

 

But where you say

I understand your sentiment but I also think don't think that all of those people who chanted at eto'o are what some would call them I doubt they are even all racist. They've found a way to get to a barcelona player but i don't think once they leave the stadium they find other races unacceptable. In that sense it is a problem that stays within football and within the ground. I just think it's c***.

 

*in the proper sense of the word.

Probably true but you can't stand for it anywhere in public life (and private life but that's unenforcable) and that's why it's more unacceptable than the chanting at Liverpool/Manchester United. On the other hand one glance at the Football Guardian "post-ironic" witty remarks makes it clear that rightly or wrongly regional baiting remains socially acceptable both inside and outside of football grounds. Regional baiting is, arguably, worse for people from Liverpool than anywhere else in England (crying Scouser here...) but you can't, realistically, legislate against it. You can and should do so against racism.

 

Similarly though I do get where you are come from too (how civilised is this?..BAN MURPH!).

[Ombudsam]

Probably true but you can't stand for it anywhere in public life (and private life but that's unenforcable) and that's why it's more unacceptable than the chanting at Liverpool/Manchester United. On the other hand one glance at the Football Guardian "post-ironic" witty remarks makes it clear that rightly or wrongly regional baiting remains socially acceptable both inside and outside of football grounds. Regional baiting is, arguably, worse for people from Liverpool than anywhere else in England (crying Scouser here...) but you can't, realistically, legislate against it. You can and should do so against racism.

 

Similarly though I do get where you are come from too (how civilised is this?..BAN MURPH!).

 

There's no "arguably" about it. Although I haven't read the football guardian, I've no doubt that scousers get it worse for some reason it genuinely is open season on your city from absolutely everyone it's ingrained into the national psyche. I mean brummies, geordies (a bit) and those from the west country get it too but not like scousers. I hear/read/see it loads and i'm a Londoner whose ears won't be tuned to it as much as someone from the city. This is coming from someone who doesn't see why a whole load of people actively seem to seek victim status.

 

I should say something on eto'o to keep this in the footy forum. He was rubbish tonight til the dullards went for him and he went back for them. Then he was ace and back to the form that should have seen him 2005 world and european player of the year.

[SkippyjonJones]

ignorance seems to be the key. the amount of ignorance about difference races/ nationalities that I've come across is unbelievable.

but them you have to apply thisd to a football setting.

 

where is the line drawn?

If you (we/ LFC) play a italian side is it ok to be anti italina int he context of the match setting? what about before andafter - what if none of the players are italian? or theirs!

 

ok - what about an african side - can we be anti african?

how about an australian side - anti australian? is that ok?

american?

 

when does the line get drawn?

 

 

fo rme its about showing some respect for the the opposition - the more respect then that louder the shouts FOR your own team should be. yeah we'd like it like that all the time but I can;t as worked up about ipswich as I can the mancs.

 

rascism. what the f*** has that got to do with rivalrys? NOTHING. get it out of the game now. NOW.

 

OK - I'm now an OOc'er but I watched the game against the mancs in a pub in Boston at stupid o'clock and was virolantly anti manc - however given that there are few pubs showing it at that time of day we had our fair share of mancs in the pub. it was all banter - louder and more vitrolic during the game but after - calmer (and more njoyable for our fans I'm sure).

 

there always be those that know where the line is and cross it- lets do everything we can to stop them crossing it - or make them realise why they are wrong.

 

the worse part is that there are people who don;t realise that there is a line that is wrong o cross. its those that we will always have trouble with.

 

and BAN KNOX!

[libero]

Ooops stumbled into this thread, too feckin deep for me...

 

Backs away slowly...

[wacko]

*eagerly awaits the argument that revelling in the death of innocents is alright but racism is wrong wrong wrong*

unless they are of colour, of course.