Creatine

[Jezzman]

I'm training 5 days a week x min. of 2 hours every time. Usually 1 hour of power lifting, followed by 1 hour of running, swimming, rowing, any cardio work. One of my mates who currently trains for a marathon told me that he uses a substance called creatine and he tells me it's a "wonder drug", but is it legal, does anyone know the substance...?? I practically never eat these kinds of substances but just eat a s***load of normal foods to get my vitamins, proteins and carbs...

[DanielS]

Firstly, you are over training - badly. Secondly, creatine is a naturally occuring substance and what it actually does is pretty much all theory. This might help.

I've trained with it and without it and I'd recommend it for use only if you stop the over training.

[slapnuts]

[Jezzman]

Firstly, you are over training - badly. Secondly, creatine is a naturally occuring substance and what it actually does is pretty much all theory. This might help.

I've trained with it and without it and I'd recommend it for use only if you stop the over training.

 

Why is it that 10 hours of training in 7 days is way too much training. it's only around 1 hour 25 mins every day in average? When I was younger, I used to train 5 times a week as well, but 1½ hours in the morning and 2 hours at night and that was way too much and I got injured. The current workload suits me fine though...

[Leo No.8]

I used it for about a year when I was training more regularly. Basically the jist of it is creatine is produced naturally by your body to get rid of the lactic acid which makes your muscles stiff.

 

By loading your body up with it you can train for longer without getting stiff. It does definitely give you a boost I'd say - I've just set up a gym in our garage so I'll probably start on it again myself soon.

 

Only thing is the powder tastes horrible whatever you mix it with, and when you are loading up you have to take it 5 times a day. After the first week you only need to tak one a day and that's fine.

 

Also, apparently there are potential side-affects in terms of your kidneys, and it is illegal in some countries (not in the UK you can get it in health shops), but I think that's unproven and linked into much more long term usage.

 

It's certainly much more moderate booster for your training compared to steroids.

Edited February 23, 2006 by Leo No.8

[Owen1978]

[DanielS]

Why is it that 10 hours of training in 7 days is way too much training. it's only around 1 hour 25 mins every day in average? When I was younger, I used to train 5 times a week as well, but 1½ hours in the morning and 2 hours at night and that was way too much and I got injured. The current workload suits me fine though...

 

2 hours of cardio a day is great. Go for it. 2 hours of powerlifting a day isn't, but it wont do too much harm. Doing an hour of each on the same day is just nuts. What do you want to achieve? The cardio is going to drain the resources your muscles would use to recover and rebuild from the powerlifting so you wont gain strengh or size and the powerlifting is going to fatigue muscles and tendons that could lead to injury during the cardio phase? Just because you can manage it doesn't mean it is a sensible way to train.

When you talk about powerlifting what do you mean anyway? Is it just using weights or is it proper hardcore powerlifting focussing on the three main disciplines?

Combining the two forms of training is harming the normal goals of both. If you are powerlifting 5 days a week you are over training anyway. Your body needs rest to grow and recover - 4/7 days a week resistance training is about the optimum limit unless you are on illegal substances.

Edited February 23, 2006 by DanielS

[Kahnee]

you can train for longer without getting stiff.

 

So not to be used if a post-gym romantic evening is planned

[Jezzman]

2 hours of cardio a day is great. Go for it. 2 hours of powerlifting a day isn't, but it wont do too much harm. Doing an hour of each on the same day is just nuts. What do you want to achieve? The cardio is going to drain the resources your muscles would use to recover and rebuild from the powerlifting so you wont gain strengh or size and the powerlifting is going to fatigue muscles and tendons that could lead to injury during the cardio phase? Just because you can manage it doesn't mean it is a sensible way to train.

When you talk about powerlifting what do you mean anyway? Is it just using weights or is it proper hardcore powerlifting focussing on the three main disciplines?

Combining the two forms of training is harming the normal goals of both. If you are powerlifting 5 days a week you are over training anyway. Your body needs rest to grow and recover - 4/7 days a week resistance training is about the optimum limit unless you are on illegal substances.

 

Currently it's not hardcore powerlifting, but just lifting weights to tone my body, not training to bulk up. I train with lots of reps, at least 8 in every set I lift. So basically I've split my body down in 5 days. 1: chest 2: back 3: arms 4: shoulders 5: legs and add 1 hour of cardio of any kind on top of that. Do you still think I over train? I'm deffo not an expert, just seeking advice...

[DanielS]

Currently it's not hardcore powerlifting, but just lifting weights to tone my body, not training to bulk up. I train with lots of reps, at least 8 in every set I lift. So basically I've split my body down in 5 days. 1: chest 2: back 3: arms 4: shoulders 5: legs and add 1 hour of cardio of any kind on top of that. Do you still think I over train? I'm deffo not an expert, just seeking advice...

 

You are still over doing the training in terms of the weights and cardio on the same day, but if it isn't heavy stuff you should be okay. The problem with adding creatine to that training schedule is that you will be able to do more and feel like doing more - which is not a good idea. The problem is one of recovery. You have to give yourself time to recover or you are just teaching your body to breakdown in one way or another...

If you are looking at keeping fit and toned then leave out the creatine and keep up the excercise with a good diet. If you want to bulk up then cut out most of the cardio, increase the weights you are lifting, but decrease the training days to 3-4 days a week with the other days doing 30-45 minutes of cardio. Adding creatine to a diet with a bit more protein in it will help you gain sensibly...

Edited February 23, 2006 by DanielS

[Paul B]

I'd strongly recommend not using it at all. Here's a couple of problems I had with it:

 

Firstly, it certainly does boost your muscle size and strength. Sadly, it does nothing for the surrounding structures such as the ligaments and bones. Training for a tough climb one year, I was chinning-up and my muscles were, though I say it myself, impressive, the tendons and ligaments though had not progressed to anything like the same degree. I felt an ominous tear above the left blade and the shoulder has never been right since. I've had cortisone and all sorts but I still cannot lift any heavy weight straight up with my left arm.

 

Secondly, gout! I am most definitely not the body shape or weight to indicate I should get gout but using Creatine one particularly tough training year gave me a very stiff and painful big toe joint. The doc told me it was undeniably gout only after considering all other options. Gout can be caused by extremes of protien and it was during the "laoding" phase of taking Creatine that this occurred. I would never use it now and would urge caution in everyone considering it.

 

By the way, it is entirely legal.

[Jezzman]

You are still over doing the training in terms of the weights and cardio on the same day, but if it isn't heavy stuff you should be okay. The problem with adding creatine to that training schedule is that you will be able to do more and feel like doing more - which is not a good idea. The problem is one of recovery. You have to give yourself time to recover or you are just teaching your body to breakdown in one way or another...

If you are looking at keeping fit and toned then leave out the creatine and keep up the excercise with a good diet. If you want to bulk up then cut out most of the cardio, increase the weights you are lifting, but decrease the training days to 3-4 days a week with the other days doing 30-45 minutes of cardio. Adding creatine to a diet with a bit more protein in it will help you gain sensibly...

 

Thanks a lot for the advice Daniel! I have actually thought about this training plan:

 

Day 1: Shoulders and back (no cardio)

Day 2: Chest and triceps (no cardio)

Day 3: back and biceps (no cardio)

Day 4: rest

Day 5: light leg training + 10km of running

Day 6: 1,5-2km swimming

Day 7: rest

 

Day 8: Shoulders and back (no cardio)

Day 9: Chest and triceps (no cardio)

Day 10: back and biceps (no cardio)

Day 11: rest

continues days 1-7 etc and then switch between different cardio exercises as rowing, stair climber, cardio wave, eliptical etc...

 

What do you reckon?

[DanielS]

I'd strongly recommend not using it at all. Here's a couple of problems I had with it:

 

Firstly, it certainly does boost your muscle size and strength. Sadly, it does nothing for the surrounding structures such as the ligaments and bones. Training for a tough climb one year, I was chinning-up and my muscles were, though I say it myself, impressive, the tendons and ligaments though had not progressed to anything like the same degree. I felt an ominous tear above the left blade and the shoulder has never been right since. I've had cortisone and all sorts but I still cannot lift any heavy weight straight up with my left arm.

 

Secondly, gout! I am most definitely not the body shape or weight to indicate I should get gout but using Creatine one particularly tough training year gave me a very stiff and painful big toe joint. The doc told me it was undeniably gout only after considering all other options. Gout can be caused by extremes of protien and it was during the "laoding" phase of taking Creatine that this occurred. I would never use it now and would urge caution in everyone considering it.

 

By the way, it is entirely legal.

 

The "loading phase" isn't as popular now as it was when creatine first hit the market in a big way several years ago. The suggestion these days is to go for 5-6 weeks on a steady course of about half the "loading phase" recommendation daily and then get off the stuff for a month or two. Like anything it will build up if you keep shovelling it in and not letting the body deal with the excess.

 

Thanks a lot for the advice Daniel! I have actually thought about this training plan:

 

Day 1: Shoulders and back (no cardio)

Day 2: Chest and triceps (no cardio)

Day 3: back and biceps (no cardio)

Day 4: rest

Day 5: light leg training + 10km of running

Day 6: 1,5-2km swimming

Day 7: rest

 

Day 8: Shoulders and back (no cardio)

Day 9: Chest and triceps (no cardio)

Day 10: back and biceps (no cardio)

Day 11: rest

continues days 1-7 etc and then switch between different cardio exercises as rowing, stair climber, cardio wave, eliptical etc...

 

What do you reckon?

 

If you are comfortable with that and it works for you then go for it. The only problem I would have with that is doing leg weight training before you do cardio. If you are looking to add strength then pre-exhaust with cardio. If you are looking to add bulk then put your leg training in isolation from any leg-intense cardio work.

Also, putting the rest day in at day 3 instead of 4 and moving the rest of the training days accordingly might be of benefit.

[Paul B]

The "loading phase" isn't as popular now as it was when creatine first hit the market in a big way several years ago. The suggestion these days is to go for 5-6 weeks on a steady course of about half the "loading phase" recommendation daily and then get off the stuff for a month or two. Like anything it will build up if you keep shovelling it in and not letting the body deal with the excess.

 

 

Well that's gout out the way, but it don't help the tendons/ligament strengthening argument much.

[Kurt]

I'm currently using Creatine HCL, no loading phase at all. Roughly 3~5 grammes a day. 5g on training days (3 day split) 3g on non training days.

 

In the past 9 weeks I've gained a good 6lbs of LBM and dropped my body fat from 24% to 19%.

If you can, take it capped. No need to mix with anything, no decrease in absorbtion uptake etc.

 

It's no 'wonder drug' or anything.. and it's a misconception that you can 'tone' your muscles too. But simply increasing your protien intake (just use a generic whey protien powder to start) should let you see some gains, particularly useful to you to prevent muscle loss due to the amount of cardio you're doing.

 

Also, Creatine certainly won't cause gout..lol

[Paul B]

 

 

Also, Creatine certainly won't cause gout..lol

 

Well it did, I can assure you. lol.

[DanielS]

Well that's gout out the way, but it don't help the tendons/ligament strengthening argument much.

 

I don't know how you train and I don't know what equipment you train on. I don't want to suggest anything is to blame beyond what you have said without all of the information. I also vaguely recall you might have had some extreme views on warming up and warming down that I don't agree with or that might have been somebody else...

All in all I don't know you so I can't comment on what your tendon/ligament issues are.

I do know that training on weight machines exclusively isn't clever and that sometimes tendons and ligaments have a mind of their own in even the healthiest, best trained athletes. None of which implicates creatine. I also know that I've never had tendon or ligament issues and over the years I have done some reasonably serious lifting. Not anymore though.

Edited February 23, 2006 by DanielS

[disco_volante]

it does improve your peformance slightly but it increases your water ratension(sic) so makes you put on weight, also as soon as you stop using it any gains that you would have made will go. if your looking for a good program use either lee labradas program or the bodyforlife program they as they work. i think the bodyforlife program is the better of the two.

[Paul B]

I don't know how you train and I don't know what equipment you train on. I don't want to suggest anything is to blame beyond what you have said without all of the information. I also vaguely recall you might have had some extreme views on warming up and warming down that I don't agree with or that might have been somebody else...

All in all I don't know you so I can't comment on what your tendon/ligament issues are.

I do know that training on weight machines exclusively isn't clever and that sometimes tendons and ligaments have a mind of their own in even the healthiest, best trained athletes. None of which implicates creatine. I also know that I've never had tendon or ligament issues and over the years I have done some reasonably serious lifting. Not anymore though.

 

 

I don't think I have any views on warming up so it probably wasn't me. Also, I wasn't using any equipment or external weight at the time, just a chin-up bar to pull up my own body weight. I have no axe to grind one way or the other on the issue, I'm just giving my experiences with creatine.

Edited February 23, 2006 by Paul B

[DanielS]

I don't think I have any views on warming up so it probably wasn't me. Also, I wasn't using any equipment or external weight at the time, just a chin-up bar to pull up my own body weight. I have no axe to grind one way or the other on the issue, I'm just giving my experiences with creatine.

 

QUite a while back there was a discussion on warming up and warming down and someone mentioned that they never did either and it was all hogwash, etc, etc - I can't remember who it was and for some reason I thought it might have been you. No idea why and apologies for the mistake.

As I said, I don't know the conditions you were training under so I can't comment on you and I offered what I could comment on. In your circumstances it could have been anything that did your shoulder in - including creatine use - but I just don't have the info to know. I've not really seen much to support creatine being a particular problem in that regard, but I do know there are people who have problems with tendon and ligament damage from poor training methods and unsuitable diet. I am not suggesting you fall into either category, but over training, age and excercise history have been shown to be major contributors to ligament and tendon issues whereas creatine hasn't to the same extent.

[disco_volante]

i dont think doing 2hrs of cardio is great. After 50 mins of cardio you go through catabolic state which will defeat the point of any of the weight training that you do.

[DanielS]

it does improve your peformance slightly but it increases your water ratension(sic) so makes you put on weight, also as soon as you stop using it any gains that you would have made will go. if your looking for a good program use either lee labradas program or the bodyforlife program they as they work. i think the bodyforlife program is the better of the two.

 

The bodyforlife program is the best available. Lee Labrada's is only any good for people under 5'3".

[disco_volante]

The bodyforlife program is the best available. Lee Labrada's is only any good for people under 5'3".

 

 

lee labradas program is also better for cheesy american smilies as well!

[The Hitman]

Firstly, you are over training - badly.

Yep,waaay too much stress on the body with all that,especially power-lifting immediately followed by cardio.

Give the body some rest,it needs it!

Edited February 23, 2006 by Pretty Boy

[Toni]

Disco Volante, by the bodyforlife programme do you mean this LINK?????

 

i also have a couple of questions to Daniel S and a couple of others who seem to know what they re talking about.

 

Preambling that, to get toned you need to have muscle first, SO If you do not add muscle (or bulk up a bit first) you cant get toned.

 

1)Now i was always told and read that if you do cardio training before or after resistance training, you would lose the beneficial effects of resistance training, with the result that it will largely prevent you from adding muscle? I was always advised to do cardio on seperate days. How much do you think it s true??

 

2) The way you do cardio is also very important, when it comes to seize the full gains of resistance training. I was told that an hour on a treadmill would significantly hinder your progress to add muscle, even if done on seperate days. After 16mins on a treadmill you would start to lose muscle instead of fat and i was given the example of a marathon runner and a sprinter, i.e. those marathon runners are way less built and toned than sprinters. Imho 16 mins of running are not enough to lose fat. What do you think? Do you think this is true and if so, what kind of cardio training, do you recommend?