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4 hours ago, Ant said:

This is my point really - you can't just go wanting the sack for anyone who holds views that you might not agree with.

I might think they're slightly xenophobic, you may think its Nazism 

If you suspected and recoiled from their character how do you think someone not as white as you would feel?  Empowered?  No, they’d just think this is what this workplace is like and the people in it, who see it and turn a blind eye to it like Ant does.

 

That probably only matters if there were non-white people in the vicinity though, and in that kind of workplace there probably isn’t.  Not in anything senior for sure.

 

Sounds s*** doesn’t it.

 

 

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We should of course forgive people who make mistakes and apologise and try to make amends. I’ve never seen an example of a large number of people disagreeing with that. It’s not ok to be racist,

Nick Cave is wrong and Toby Young is a dick. 'Cancel culture' barely exists outside of the minds of 'classical liberal' / alt-right bellends like Toby Young and Niall Ferguson. They're painting a

I think it comes down to black women and trans people daring to have a voice all this tbh.  That’s where the phrasing comes from, that’s inevitably who we are talking about.

18 minutes ago, smithdown said:

If you suspected and recoiled from their character how do you think someone not as white as you would feel?  Empowered?  No, they’d just think this is what this workplace is like and the people in it, who see it and turn a blind eye to it like Ant does.

 

That probably only matters if there were non-white people in the vicinity though, and in that kind of workplace there probably isn’t.  Not in anything senior for sure.

 

Sounds s*** doesn’t it.

 

 

If we sacked everyone who thought that there are too many immigrants in the country then more than half the workforce would be on the dole.

I have some debates in the office, I would never refer to colleagues past or present as racist. I would say they held right wing views. 

Just sacking everyone and cancelling is a sure way to solve absolutely nothing. It's like the Kick it out Campaign, which has achieved very little according to those it was there to support. 

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9 minutes ago, Stevie H said:

What's the difference between cancel culture and deplatforming by the way? 

They're basically thrown together now so they're not really hugely different. If I was to try and describe them apart I'd say that 'cancel cultuer' is *maybe* more of a consumer thing (though even that is a bit of a reach) and deplatforming is more about direct action in response to an impending event/debate etc.

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6 minutes ago, Ant said:

If we sacked everyone who thought that there are too many immigrants in the country then more than half the workforce would be on the dole.

I have some debates in the office, I would never refer to colleagues past or present as racist. I would say they held right wing views. 

Just sacking everyone and cancelling is a sure way to solve absolutely nothing. It's like the Kick it out Campaign, which has achieved very little according to those it was there to support. 

Is that why you don’t address how those debates might affect someone other than yourself?  Because everyone’s at it?

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5 minutes ago, Stevie H said:

What's the difference between cancel culture and deplatforming by the way? 

People who provoke violence, racism and generally speaking illegal things should be de-platformed. Like Katie Hopkins for example should not have a platform - 

I think cancel culture is to remove 'art' music, images, video that may be reflective of an era where racist and misogynic content was portrayed, whilst being wrong then, and wrong now is to pretend it didn't exist. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Ant said:

If we sacked everyone who thought that there are too many immigrants in the country then more than half the workforce would be on the dole.

I have some debates in the office, I would never refer to colleagues past or present as racist. I would say they held right wing views. 

Just sacking everyone and cancelling is a sure way to solve absolutely nothing. It's like the Kick it out Campaign, which has achieved very little according to those it was there to support. 

Best just to leave things as they are then. And maybe if the Kick it Out campaign had more teeth to it then it might achieve things. Perhaps if racist views were seen as less acceptable to express in wider society (the workplace for example) people wouldn't be tempted to do the same about football matches.

Edited by stressederic
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Just now, smithdown said:

Is that why you don’t address how those debates might affect someone other than yourself?  Because everyone’s at it?

I do address those debates quite fiercely. I am actually very liberal, left wing and I think tolerant all things considered. It's difficult to convey this in a forum which is very left wing orientated (which isn't a problem by the way) So in comparison to people like yourself I'm probably not very 'woke' as it where. 

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1 minute ago, Ant said:

People who provoke violence, racism and generally speaking illegal things should be de-platformed. Like Katie Hopkins for example should not have a platform - 

I think cancel culture is to remove 'art' music, images, video that may be reflective of an era where racist and misogynic content was portrayed, whilst being wrong then, and wrong now is to pretend it didn't exist. 

 

What art has been cancelled? What media, films, music etc are no longer available?

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3 minutes ago, Ant said:

People who provoke violence, racism and generally speaking illegal things should be de-platformed. Like Katie Hopkins for example should not have a platform - 

I think cancel culture is to remove 'art' music, images, video that may be reflective of an era where racist and misogynic content was portrayed, whilst being wrong then, and wrong now is to pretend it didn't exist. 

 

Again there’s no specifics

 

what art?  What have you not got anymore?  What has been deleted on you?

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1 minute ago, stressederic said:

Best just to leave things as they are then. And maybe if the Kick it Out campaign had more teeth to it then it might achieve things. Perhaps if racist views were seen as less acceptable to express in wider society (the workplace for example) people wouldn't be tempted to do the same about football matches.

Racists will still be racist if you stop them from going football matches

People who find black face funny, will still find black face funny if you stop Little Britain from being on the tele (they should show that episode in schools and explain why it isn't funny, not just comedically as well btw)

Racist views aren't being seen as less acceptable, they're just not being challenged in a constructive way, nor as a society are we actually educating people correctly. We've tried banning things, we've tried cancelling things. It doesn't stop racism, it just stops you from hearing it, and that is how you end up with institutional and systemic racism and black MPs being pulled over in cars for some reason.

 

 

5 minutes ago, stressederic said:

What art has been cancelled? What media, films, music etc are no longer available?

I never said art has been cancelled I'm explaining what cancel culture is. 

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3 minutes ago, Ant said:

I do address those debates quite fiercely. I am actually very liberal, left wing and I think tolerant all things considered. It's difficult to convey this in a forum which is very left wing orientated (which isn't a problem by the way) So in comparison to people like yourself I'm probably not very 'woke' as it where. 

People might not want to hear someone slagging off immigrants while they’re at work.  They’re at work.  Why should they put up with your mates cheeky slight prejudices and your tolerant debating with them?  They’re at work.  Yous have no right .

2 minutes ago, Ant said:

Racists will still be racist if you stop them from going football matches

People who find black face funny, will still find black face funny if you stop Little Britain from being on the tele (they should show that episode in schools and explain why it isn't funny, not just comedically as well btw)

Racist views aren't being seen as less acceptable, they're just not being challenged in a constructive way, nor as a society are we actually educating people correctly. We've tried banning things, we've tried cancelling things. It doesn't stop racism, it just stops you from hearing it, and that is how you end up with institutional and systemic racism and black MPs being pulled over in cars for some reason.

 

 

I never said art has been cancelled I'm explaining what cancel culture is. 

This is bulls*** now

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8 minutes ago, Ant said:

Racists will still be racist if you stop them from going football matches

People who find black face funny, will still find black face funny if you stop Little Britain from being on the tele (they should show that episode in schools and explain why it isn't funny, not just comedically as well btw)

Racist views aren't being seen as less acceptable, they're just not being challenged in a constructive way, nor as a society are we actually educating people correctly. We've tried banning things, we've tried cancelling things. It doesn't stop racism, it just stops you from hearing it, and that is how you end up with institutional and systemic racism and black MPs being pulled over in cars for some reason.

 

 

I never said art has been cancelled I'm explaining what cancel culture is. 

Oh there absolutely needs to be much wider education of race and racism in this country. It should start with a very open examination of the British Empire, its roots of white supremacy, the slave trade, and dozens of other aspects. It should expose the realities of living in this country both today and in the past as a person of colour.

But it should also be tied to real repercussions for racist behaviour. This country still has the mindset that it's worse to be called a racist than it is to be one. How many of your mates at work are actually just holding 'right wing' beliefs and how many of them are actually being racist? And if it's the latter why won't you use the term?

You also said that:

Quote

I think cancel culture is to remove 'art' music, images, video that may be reflective of an era where racist and misogynic content was portrayed, whilst being wrong then, and wrong now is to pretend it didn't exist. 

So either cancel culture *is* removing art etc, in which case there will be clear examples, or cancel culture somehow exists to remove these things but isn't actually doing any of it.

Edited by stressederic
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2 minutes ago, smithdown said:

People might not want to hear someone slagging off immigrants while they’re at work.  They’re at work.  Why should they put up with your mates cheeky slight prejudices and your tolerant debating with them?  They’re at work.  Yous have no right .

You're taking it to the extreme. Do you think someone saying "I think they should stop illegal immigration" is legitimate grounds for dismissal. 

You have two options

1. Just get him sacked because you don't like his opinions

2 .Or you debate that person

If you chose number 1 you are solving absolutely nothing. 

Here is one - Do you think everyone who was at Wigan away who sang Luis Suarez' name back during the Evra saga should have their season ticket taken away from them? Imagine Evra watching that.

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1 minute ago, Ant said:

You're taking it to the extreme. Do you think someone saying "I think they should stop illegal immigration" is legitimate grounds for dismissal. 

You have two options

1. Just get him sacked because you don't like his opinions

2 .Or you debate that person

If you chose number 1 you are solving absolutely nothing. 

Here is one - Do you think everyone who was at Wigan away who sang Luis Suarez' name back during the Evra saga should have their season ticket taken away from them? Imagine Evra watching that.

No. I can't imagine anyone has ever lost their job for saying that either.

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4 minutes ago, Ant said:

You're taking it to the extreme. Do you think someone saying "I think they should stop illegal immigration" is legitimate grounds for dismissal. 

You have two options

1. Just get him sacked because you don't like his opinions

2 .Or you debate that person

If you chose number 1 you are solving absolutely nothing. 

Here is one - Do you think everyone who was at Wigan away who sang Luis Suarez' name back during the Evra saga should have their season ticket taken away from them? Imagine Evra watching that.

How many people have you converted with these debates?  

More than one?

In my experience they just jump from one piece of nonsense to the next, almost always contradicting themselves within seconds, claiming what they said wasn’t what they said and stuff like that.  It’s useless.  

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Just now, stressederic said:

Oh there absolutely needs to be much wider education of race and racism in this country. It should start with a very open examination of the British Empire, its roots of white supremacy, the slave trade, and dozens of other aspects. It should expose the realities of living in this country both today and in the past as a person of colour.

But it should also be tied to real repercussions for racist behaviour. This country still has the mindset that it's worse to be called a racist than it is to be one. How many of your mates at work are actually just holding 'right wing' beliefs and how many of them are actually being racist? And if it's the latter why won't you use the term?

You also said that:

So either cancel culture *is* removing art etc, in which case there will be clear examples, or cancel culture somehow exists to remove these things but but isn't actually doing any of it.

There are (although it could be better) repercussions for racially motivated crimes. The challenge is however how you achieve real repercussions for systemic racist behavior. I mean take lad who pulled over the MP the other day - Is he racist in the purest sense of the term?

I don't associate with racists.  When you start associating right wing people as being racists that is when you get Brexit

You are putting words in my mouth, I said what cancel culture is, whether it is happening on the scale that has been discussed is a different matter, I think it is over hyped, but there have been cases where content has been removed, changed, or indeed individuals have been targeted for holding views that are not compatible. Cancel Culture actually also isn't purely about the removal of art etc, its the targeting of things that have caused offensive for whatever reason. 

 

 

1 minute ago, stressederic said:

No. I can't imagine anyone has ever lost their job for saying that either.

 

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I'm not putting any words in your mouth. You have literally said here: 'there have been cases where content has been removed, changed, or indeed individuals have been targeted for holding views that are not compatible.' If that is the case why is it so hard to name some of the content/art?

Quote

I don't associate with racists.  When you start associating right wing people as being racists that is when you get Brexit

Uh huh.

Edited by stressederic
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1 minute ago, smithdown said:

How many people have you converted with these debates?  

More than one?

In my experience they just jump from one piece of nonsense to the next, almost always contradicting themselves within seconds, claiming what they said wasn’t what they said and stuff like that.  It’s useless.  

What do you think should happen then? Generally speaking. Jail Sentences? Vilification? Pubic Shaming? What? 

What do you do about racists? Other than calling it out when you see it, challenge and educate which is sort of what I try to do. 

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6 minutes ago, stressederic said:

I'm not putting any words in your mouth. You have literally said here: 'there have been cases where content has been removed, changed, or indeed individuals have been targeted for holding views that are not compatible.' If that is the case why is it so hard to name some of the content/art?

Cancel Culture isn't just a racial thing btw, it's about other crimes or instances or content that someone may take exception to 

But from a racial/trans context

1. Little Brtain

2. Fawlty Towers

3. Episodes of Scrubs

4. Sarah Silverman

5. JK Rowling

I was watching some content about Cancel Culture on my lunch and the phrase Unduly Vindictive was used which I think reflects the movement well. 

Caroline Flack is a victim of cancel culture according to people. I think we've framed the debate from a racial perspective rather than generally speaking.

Edited by Ant
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5 minutes ago, Ant said:

What do you think should happen then? Generally speaking. Jail Sentences? Vilification? Pubic Shaming? What? 

What do you do about racists? Other than calling it out when you see it, challenge and educate which is sort of what I try to do. 

Be careful when calling it out though. You might force them to back leaving the EU.

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30 minutes ago, stressederic said:

They're basically thrown together now so they're not really hugely different. If I was to try and describe them apart I'd say that 'cancel cultuer' is *maybe* more of a consumer thing (though even that is a bit of a reach) and deplatforming is more about direct action in response to an impending event/debate etc.

My understanding of it seems to be that deplatforming is banning someone from, say, Twitter, for saying horrible things, spouting bigotry and fascist rhetoric. Such as yes, Katie Hopkins. Or Milo whatshisname. And that cancel culture seems to have spun out of that and been weaponised as a term by people who don't like that horrible people spouting bigotry and fascist rhetoric get deplatformed for having spouted such. 

Cancel culture isn't really a thing is it? It's just been turned into a thing. It's just boycotting someone or something for a reason and telling your friends they might want to boycott them/it too, isn't it? Nobody is saying you can't say something, they're just disagreeing with you when you do and complaining about the place you do it. Which is then up to the platform to deplatform them or not. Haven't seen any free speech banned I don't think. You can still chat that s***. Just not here etc.

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1 minute ago, Ant said:

Cancel Culture isn't just a racial thing btw, it's about other crimes btw.

But from a racial/trans context

1. Little Brtain

2. Fawlty Towers

3. Episodes of Scrubs

4. Sarah Silverman

5. JK Rowling

I was watching some content about Cancel Culture on my lunch and the phrase Unduly Vindictive was used which I think reflects the movement well. 

Caroline Flack is a victim of cancel culture according to people. I think we've framed the debate from a racial perspective rather than generally speaking.

1) Little Britain - Still all available on DVD. The BBC won't screen parts of them anymore.

2) Fawlty Towers. Was changed by the creators a long time before 'cancel culture'. Still available on DVD. If you want the racist bits, enjoy: 

3) Scrubs - Still all available on DVD. Have E4 even stopped showing them?

4) What's happened to Sarah Silverman? She's still a world famous comic.

5) JK Rowling - Yep can't buy a Harry Potter book in a Waterstones these days.

Do you know what's really 'unduly vindictive'? People like David Walliams using all of his power and his prestige and his fame, to decide the funniest thing imaginable is him in a fat suit blacked up.

Same as JK Rowling deciding the best way to use her power is to victimise transwomen.

If in response some people decide not to buy her f***ing books anymore or that David Walliams is a c***, then god grief the world will go on.

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