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Just now, stressederic said:

You disliked his post and going to take him to task for it?

He called me a right wing c*** from what I can see, just checking I'm reading that correctly, with him, if that's OK with you?

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We should of course forgive people who make mistakes and apologise and try to make amends. I’ve never seen an example of a large number of people disagreeing with that. It’s not ok to be racist,

Nick Cave is wrong and Toby Young is a dick. 'Cancel culture' barely exists outside of the minds of 'classical liberal' / alt-right bellends like Toby Young and Niall Ferguson. They're painting a

I think it comes down to black women and trans people daring to have a voice all this tbh.  That’s where the phrasing comes from, that’s inevitably who we are talking about.

16 minutes ago, Kvarme Ate My Food said:


 

Also you said it’s happening too much and I’m not clear on where you’re drawing the line between acceptable offence and dysfunction.

‘Too much’ - dunno, maybe it’s happening just enough, was borrowing a phrase

not too much in a way that impacts my life that’s for sure 

dysfunction is about some of the people jumping on the bandwagon but again, I don’t really care 

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1 minute ago, Molby said:

‘Too much’ - dunno, maybe it’s happening just enough, was borrowing a phrase

not too much in a way that impacts my life that’s for sure 

dysfunction is about some of the people jumping on the bandwagon but again, I don’t really care 

Ok cool, if you don’t care then we’re all good.

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Just now, muleskinner said:

He called me a right wing c*** from what I can see, just checking I'm reading that correctly, with him, if that's OK with you?

No you go for it. Just be careful not to censor him or silence his voice. It's a slippery slope apparently.

I wouldn't be pleased at someone calling me a right wing c*** either. If you don't like it you're totally within your rights to tell him to go f*** himself (sorry, Bailo). You could mute him as well if he super annoys you.

But this is basically 'cancel culture'. He said something, you got offended, you want to find out if he meant it, and then you'll decide whether to interact or f*** him off.

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Just now, stressederic said:

No you go for it. Just be careful not to censor him or silence his voice. It's a slippery slope apparently.

I wouldn't be pleased at someone calling me a right wing c*** either. If you don't like it you're totally within your rights to tell him to go f*** himself (sorry, Bailo). You could mute him as well if he super annoys you.

But this is basically 'cancel culture'. He said something, you got offended, you want to find out if he meant it, and then you'll decide whether to interact or f*** him off.

I think Bailo is pretty sound actually,  that's why I'm checking. 

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3 minutes ago, Kvarme Ate My Food said:

Ok cool, if you don’t care then we’re all good.

Eventually I might care if I get really, really pushed hard

but looking for trouble isn’t what I’m about 

plus, without wishing to sound negative, there’s a truckload of actual problems and even worse to come, so there isn’t the time to spare 

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1 minute ago, Molby said:

Eventually I might care if I get really, really pushed hard

but looking for trouble isn’t what I’m about 

plus, without wishing to sound negative, there’s a truckload of actual problems and even worse to come, so there isn’t the time to spare 

I agree that cancel culture isn’t an actual problem. Sounded like you were saying it was but K cool.

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Firstly I was mostly joking but it did seem odd how "Smith" waded in affirming Cave's comments without really giving an explanation. I didn't see your comment under your quote of Cave.

Secondly, I don't think cancel culture is real and Eric has explained in a much better way than I could why I think that. It's extending now to this "free speech" nonsense of right wing academics that The Times keeps pushing.

There's a definite line to be drawn between moaning about cancel culture and right wing politics, including the more extreme end of that. I think if you're going to argue that it's real you need to provide examples of people being genuinely cancelled and not just hounded off social media.

Cave says what KAMF later summarised much better, in 1/10th as many words. It's OK if you've said something c*** in your past as long as you've owned it, learnt from it and bettered yourself. It would be unreasonable to e.g. lose your job over it unless you refuse to distance yourself from it or show you've not changed. I've said some ridiculously stupid things on here, particularly when I was younger, that thankfully have either been forgotten (hiya KAMF!) or forgiven.

Toby Young types and the main proponents of that stupid letter aren't arguing for that level of forgiveness and mercy. They just don't want plebs like us to challenge their lofty, idiotic thoughts on trans women or the climate or Black Lives Matter etc. Look at how Young has never apologised for his comments that led to him losing his appointment as Universities Commisioner or whatever he was going to be.

So, in short, no Muley, from my limited experience of you in here you don't strike me as a right wing c*** at all *but* I wonder why you think cancel culture is a real, worrying thing. You appear to be a fan of NC so maybe this is like me defending Luis Suarez being a racist prick.

Oh and I don't think this whole topic gets discussed outside of social media at all and that's your root evil in all of this. Twitter is an addictive, poisonous place where battles like this one just entrench everyone on polar opposites. That said, one side regularly seems to be able to take legal action against the other to stop them being so nasty, which strikes me as being more "cancel culture" than anything else.

7 minutes ago, Kvarme Ate My Food said:

Knox and I tried several times to get invited to visit Bailo in Birmingham but he didn’t want us to come ☹️

I couldn't cope with welcoming such a media star and an all round top guy to Birmingham.

I'd be OK with you though.

Edited by Bailo
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55 minutes ago, muleskinner said:

I'm a right wing c*** then yeah?

No. You're not. You're clearly not. Bailo doesn''t think you are either.

I do reckon this term Cancel Culture is at once too broad and too narrow. Too broad because it seems to include people believing that having new voices to the public discourse disagreeing with them is something that shouldn't happen. Too narrow because it is targeted at a slither of opinion and ignores the silencing done by those who have had free reign of the discourse terrain as well as the significant structural impediments to having the thoughts of the less powerful being broadcast or even formed.

I do also think that we have to reckon with the fact that the world is messy and we cannot function within the clean lines that would make it easier. This is where I think there is a coming together with what you are expressing and and the thing you are decrying. The aim is allow humanity to be humanity whether that is through not wishing to engage with people who look to deny the right of the marginalised to exist or seeking to foster an understanding in people that we are all flawed and we need a project that is inclusive and forgiving to reach the best of ourselves.

 

As an aside I do think that it would be helpful if we all acknowledged that we all have our limits of things we regard as permissible.

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55 minutes ago, Kvarme Ate My Food said:

Once I had a job which I thought might have some profile in the local press. It didn’t, no one have a f*** and anyway I made no success of it. 
But I briefly worried that things I’d written on Twitter and even on here might surface and might threaten my career. Stupid jokes or opinions I had outgrown. So I understand people's fear of cancel culture but the truth is it’s nowhere near the fear that marginalised people live with all the time. Privileged dicks like me worrying we might be called out for the stupid s*** we’ve said should really be nowhere near anyone’s priority list.

This is good. I think that we can use the first part of it to work out a path from awareness to power. I don't see the point in creating something hostile and fearful if we want to get people on board. You would not have been better for the experience of having unknowns relentlessly depict you as evil. It would not have lead you to better work with your life. Those who love and know you would not have been endeared with the cause of those who did that to you. So I think there is a lesson there.

I can also consider the whole subject vastly overdebated.

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13 hours ago, stressederic said:

It's mentioned on twitter a lot but that's not the same thing.

Take, at random, JK Rowling. She's been 'cancelled' in the extent that people don't like her views on transwomen. But there's literally no actual repercussions from that except she might sell a few less books. She's already richer than God and has a whole world of privilege attached to her position and name.

Her being 'cancelled' is like a bee telling me it won't use the flowers in my garden anymore.

Just starting on this thread so sorry for going back to this.

But, the fact that she's richer than God is why she has the platform to make her views about transwomen so publicly. Whatever 'cancel culture' is, it is the essence of free speech. It is the less-privileged making their voices heard in the only way available to them.

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11 hours ago, muleskinner said:

A browse through the Red Hand Files will demonstrate that in spades, there is a beautiful attitude to humanity and its struggles shining through it.

I agree with you generally, but there is also often a sneery attitude to people who don't think like him.

I love Nick Cave, probably more as a person than a musician, but he's wrong about this.

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Nothing should be getting 'cancelled' - society will judge the context of the artist and their content and ultimately you need to make that decision for yourself if you can feel comfortable watching something that may be offensive. 

This recent phenomenon of 'cancel culture' has been focussed on racist incidents some from a by-gone era and some perhaps too recent for comfort, but we've always retained the music of convicted pedophiles and you can listen to them now funnily enough. 

I was watching (for some reason) an old episode of Strike it Lucky with Michael Barrymore and the introduction to the episode was words to the effect of "This episode has moments of content that are reflective of a by gone era and would be perceived as being racist and we do not condone or endorse this" and in this particular episode Barrymore acted like a China Man pulling his eyes and everything, everyone was laughing and it was uncomfortable and rightly so.

In short, let the individual decide. 

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11 hours ago, Kvarme Ate My Food said:

Once I had a job which I thought might have some profile in the local press. It didn’t, no one have a f*** and anyway I made no success of it. 
But I briefly worried that things I’d written on Twitter and even on here might surface and might threaten my career. Stupid jokes or opinions I had outgrown. So I understand people's fear of cancel culture but the truth is it’s nowhere near the fear that marginalised people live with all the time. Privileged dicks like me worrying we might be called out for the stupid s*** we’ve said should really be nowhere near anyone’s priority list.

What if someone did find tweets of yours that did threaten your career - took them to your boss and you had then been sacked?

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Someone like Kapaernick Is a HUGE example of cancel culture yet his name never comes up from the Toby Young side.  It’s a glaring glorious example of all the things they fear happening yet they don’t go near it.

 

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