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Statues hmmmmm

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32 minutes ago, kop205 said:

There is no moral equivalence between renaming a street named after a slave trader and tearing down a public facility, built from their money, that people actually get use from. Germany haven't felt the need to tear up roads built by the Nazis as far as I know but they obviously wouldn't have them named after them.

There is an argument that the communities most affected by the slave trade should get most benefit from those facilities however, which could be done in a number of ways.

I think the whole 'Where does this end?' stuff is a bit of a red herring.

This is all valid but equally I'm quite happy for the decision  to be made based on discussions within the communities thise his actions affected. There is obviously an argument for keeping them so as to not hide history.

That's sense Withnail

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59 minutes ago, kop205 said:

There is no moral equivalence between renaming a street named after a slave trader and tearing down a public facility, built from their money, that people actually get use from. Germany haven't felt the need to tear up roads built by the Nazis as far as I know but they obviously wouldn't have them named after them.

There is an argument that the communities most affected by the slave trade should get most benefit from those facilities however, which could be done in a number of ways.

I think the whole 'Where does this end?' stuff is a bit of a red herring.

Fair point. I get that entirely. I guess it is mostly driven by utility - a statue of that type does little public good, street name has a limited usefulness, a school or library has a much broader benefit. If the statues need to be kept at all then maybe the storage facility of a museum is the best place for them, no need for them to be on public show. Education can happen perfectly well without them still being on view.

59 minutes ago, kop205 said:

There is no moral equivalence between renaming a street named after a slave trader and tearing down a public facility, built from their money, that people actually get use from. Germany haven't felt the need to tear up roads built by the Nazis as far as I know but they obviously wouldn't have them named after them.

There is an argument that the communities most affected by the slave trade should get most benefit from those facilities however, which could be done in a number of ways.

I thik the whole 'Where does this end?' stuff is a bit of a red herring.This is all valid but equally I'm quite happy for the decision  to be made based on discussions within the communities those his actions affected. There is obviously an argument for keeping them so as to not hide history.

I think ideally that's the way it would go but opinions are now so polarised that its difficult to imagine arriving at any consensus. I guess it depends on what you mean by community...

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1 hour ago, charlie clown said:

Problem is that it could become a rabbit hole - slave trader makes donations to philanthropic causes including city infrastructure, has statue erected, street named after him, some of his money is used to put houses on the street plus may be a hospital and a school, maybe a library.. Take the statue down, sure. Rename the street, perhaps. Pull down the hospital, schools, library? Tear down the houses?

 

You don't pull the hospitals etc down. You rename them. Just like with the streets.

56 minutes ago, cymrococh said:

People talk about rewriting history as if it's a bad thing, rewriting the history of the British Empire to emphasise the oppression and crimes rather than the 'glory' is a very valid venture.

Rewriting history is literally what historians do.

Damn straight.

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1 minute ago, stressederic said:

You don't pull the hospitals etc down. You rename them. Just like with the streets.

I'm not arguing to the contrary,  if that's where you draw the line, then that's where you draw the line but there is <<a>> logical extrapolation which says that if it was built on slave money, then it is also tainted, no matter what force for good it has been overall. 

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5 minutes ago, stressederic said:

You don't pull the hospitals etc down. You rename them. Just like with the streets.

Prince Charles Hospital and the Price of b*****d Wales bridge will be the first to go when we get independence ;)

 

5 minutes ago, stressederic said:

Damn straight.

Critique of the slave trade written from Yoda's POV?

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2 hours ago, charlie clown said:

Problem is that it could become a rabbit hole - slave trader makes donations to philanthropic causes including city infrastructure, has statue erected, street named after him, some of his money is used to put houses on the street plus may be a hospital and a school, maybe a library.. Take the statue down, sure. Rename the street, perhaps. Pull down the hospital, schools, library? Tear down the houses?

 

Next you'll be telling us that we don't need no investment in the club from Dubai...

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2 hours ago, charlie clown said:

Problem is that it could become a rabbit hole - slave trader makes donations to philanthropic causes including city infrastructure, has statue erected, street named after him, some of his money is used to put houses on the street plus may be a hospital and a school, maybe a library.. Take the statue down, sure. Rename the street, perhaps. Pull down the hospital, schools, library? Tear down the houses?

 

and The Beatles wrote a song about a street dedicated to a slave owner  - so i guess that's their statue gone.

and then what happens to the song ? Ban it? Remove it from YouTube? Rename it?

'David James is in my ears and in my eyes

Cost us the '97 title

the bagos***e'

 

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4 hours ago, Will said:

I’m not convinced the simple use of a surname is doing much honouring to be honest. 

If you had a street named after you, you'd probably be pretty proud of it and bung a pic of the street sign on your insta I'd expect ;)

If not you then lots of people would see it as an honour I'd think. 

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15 minutes ago, Cobs said:

and The Beatles wrote a song about a street dedicated to a slave owner  - so i guess that's their statue gone.

and then what happens to the song ? Ban it? Remove it from YouTube? Rename it?

'David James is in my ears and in my eyes

Cost us the '97 title

the bagos***e'

How would renaming penny lane require any of those things, does it matter whether the song is about a street that has been renamed or not?

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1 minute ago, Tommok said:

If you had a street named after you, you'd probably be pretty proud of it and bung a pic of the street sign on your insta I'd expect ;)

If not you then lots of people would see it as an honour I'd think. 

I've got a street in Bristol named after me. 

I'm hoping the Democratic Lads Association of LADSLADSLADS are going to defend me this week.

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3 minutes ago, Tommok said:

If you had a street named after you, you'd probably be pretty proud of it and bung a pic of the street sign on your insta I'd expect ;)

If not you then lots of people would see it as an honour I'd think. 

Not with will's surname

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2 minutes ago, Swan Red said:

How would renaming penny lane require any of those things, does it matter whether the song is about a street that has been renamed or not?

kinda thought it was obvious that post was a joke :oops: 

 

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1 minute ago, Cobs said:

kinda thought it was obvious that post was a joke :oops: 

 

So now we're supposed to just ignore things because they're jokes!?!? WHERE WILL THIS END?

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14 minutes ago, Cobs said:

kinda thought it was obvious that post was a joke :oops: 

The oops is mine in that case lol I'm an idiot

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By the way, it appears that Penny Lane was not named after the slave trader called Penny, but something else entirely, so I'm far more relaxed about this issue now 😉

2 hours ago, cymrococh said:

People talk about rewriting history as if it's a bad thing, rewriting the history of the British Empire to emphasise the oppression and crimes rather than the 'glory' is a very valid venture.

Rewriting history is literally what historians do.

I don't think anyone complaining about "rewriting history" would agree with your definition. In fact, what you are describing is "reinterpreting history" or "reanalysing history" I would say, but then maybe we are getting too (?!?) pedantic

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Not really. Nobody's arguing that Herodotus had the facts pretty much right he was just looking at it through the wrong lens. You add to the historical record when new information is exposed, whether that be a physical artifact or a new perspective from previously marginalised voices.

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Not sure any of that applies in this case though - people are just deciding they don't want slavers honoured in the ways they have been in the past; don't think this is based on any uncovering of new facts or perspectives, it's just (some) people are more willing to listen to those perspectives or take them on as their own views. Not sure if that's all that clear - or even that relevant

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5 hours ago, Molby said:

that said, this is what happens when people have legitimate grievances, easy to deal with,  and they just get swatted away for decades 

This is good 

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4 hours ago, Gethin said:

Prince Charles Hospital and the Price of b*****d Wales bridge will be the first to go when we get independence ;)

 

 

Amen brother

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On 11/06/2020 at 08:03, Will said:

I’m not convinced the simple use of a surname is doing much honouring to be honest. 

I’m not convinced you are being honest.

Is naming a stand after Kenny Dalglish not an honour? I mean I know they used his first name too.

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I'm doing my best. I live on a street called Ronald Road - presumably named after someone 'worthy' called Ronald. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I have no idea who he might be. As it's not been mentioned lately, I am assuming whoever he (or of course she...) was, he wasn't a slave trader. I've never been curious enough to try to find out.

For the avoidance of any doubt, yes, naming the stand after King Kenny is clearly an honour

Not sure naming a stand after someone still living a couple of years ago compares with a street that was given a name a century or more (?) ago. Firstly because a stand is somewhat more impressive than 'just' a road; secondly, it's named after someone very closely associated with what it is; and thirdly it's very recent

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