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Statues hmmmmm

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Coaches? Would have thought a Prius should be big enough for them based on their usual turnouts 

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5 hours ago, smithdown said:

Ha you just reminded me of my arl girl chancing on that when I was a kid, on holiday going along the south coast.  She might even have given it a hard boot.

I proudly emptied my bladder on it on my staggie. 

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20 minutes ago, Hassony said:

Coaches? Would have thought a Prius should be big enough for them based on their usual turnouts 

Risky location for them. The nearest left-luggage for them to hide in afterwards is probably at Waterloo - a good 10 minute run away

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11 hours ago, sammy & a said:

Nooooo. This is the debate Molby wants. Don't give it to him.🤣

There's no way the big provocateur just happened to pick her.

I don’t know much about Mother Teresa

no surprise to hear she’s blotted her copybook somehow..... everyone does in the end

its weird that Thatcher has manoeuvred herself in to being less deserving than Churchill of having her statue pulled down though - not many people saw that coming a few years ago .....only a few forward thinkers 

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9 hours ago, cocknose said:

The world seems like it is falling apart and I wish I didn't bring kids in to it tbh

Cobs and pip always do that sort of stuff...loads of them do. I doubt there'd be fisticuffs in reality though

2 hours ago, Falconhoof said:

Some talk of Britain First and assorted right wingers having booked coaches to defend Churchill’s statue at the weekend.

Ron atkinson, the Chelsea staff, Stuart pearce?

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While I have no problem with the removal of slave trader statues (and perhaps the odd one can end up in a museum; not sure we need museums stuffed full of them...), I'm less convinced by the need to change the names of streets as I don't really see that as glorifying the people in the same way as a statue (or a concert hall - they should probably have their names changed too, no problem there)

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8 hours ago, Falconhoof said:

Some talk of Britain First and assorted right wingers having booked coaches to defend Churchill’s statue at the weekend.

Saw some Swansea football 'lad' on twitter trying to get one organised. Been outed as he's also apparently a Swansea U9s coach. At one point in the thread he offers to sort one of his mates out with some ketamine, I was intrigued by the idea of a load of hooligans in a k-hole trying to defend a statue. 

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32 minutes ago, Will said:

While I have no problem with the removal of slave trader statues (and perhaps the odd one can end up in a museum; not sure we need museums stuffed full of them...), I'm less convinced by the need to change the names of streets as I don't really see that as glorifying the people in the same way as a statue (or a concert hall - they should probably have their names changed too, no problem there)

Don’t understand why else you’d name a street after somebody.

Are you just trying to protect Penny Lane?

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Ha! Partly - but so what if a street name 'glorifies' someone? No-one necessarily knows (OK, plenty do in this instance), and it's not much of a glorification as it's not called James Penny Lane or Slave Trader Penny Lane and it's not a whopping grand carving of the man, just the use of his name. And certainly in this case the street name is much, much, much more famous for a song than for a slave trader

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9 hours ago, Falconhoof said:

Some talk of Britain First and assorted right wingers having booked coaches to defend Churchill’s statue at the weekend.

Tommy Robinson. Its been all over the internet since Sunday.

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4 minutes ago, smithdown said:

Has he been looking into it for 4 years?

I don't see any difference in purpose/intent between street names and statues really and I defo don't think it is for me to make a case as to why it shouldn't change, much as I get the arguments. 

At least we've knocked down the Churchill Way Flyovers anyway! Defo shouldn't have anything for him in Liverpool, unless it is a statue of him sending a gunboat up the Mersey.

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I don’t think anything has happened purely coz it’s a poxy side jigger but we wouldn’t expect anyone to just put up with it if they lived there

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20 minutes ago, Will said:

Ha! Partly - but so what if a street name 'glorifies' someone? No-one necessarily knows (OK, plenty do in this instance), and it's not much of a glorification as it's not called James Penny Lane or Slave Trader Penny Lane and it's not a whopping grand carving of the man, just the use of his name. And certainly in this case the street name is much, much, much more famous for a song than for a slave trader

Our city chose to honour slave traders. That needs to be put right. 

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I’m not convinced the simple use of a surname is doing much honouring to be honest. 

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1 hour ago, Will said:

While I have no problem with the removal of slave trader statues (and perhaps the odd one can end up in a museum; not sure we need museums stuffed full of them...), I'm less convinced by the need to change the names of streets as I don't really see that as glorifying the people in the same way as a statue (or a concert hall - they should probably have their names changed too, no problem there)

I’m coming round to a more nuanced position on this. I read a few bits from Liverpool historian Laurence Westgaph who has spent about 20 years talking about slavery monuments to educate people about the history around them.

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1 hour ago, Will said:

I’m not convinced the simple use of a surname is doing much honouring to be honest. 

What do you think the motivation behind naming a street after someone was?

Renaming streets or removing statues may be tokenistic, but it's tokenistic in the right direction.

Edited by cymrococh

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Problem is that it could become a rabbit hole - slave trader makes donations to philanthropic causes including city infrastructure, has statue erected, street named after him, some of his money is used to put houses on the street plus may be a hospital and a school, maybe a library.. Take the statue down, sure. Rename the street, perhaps. Pull down the hospital, schools, library? Tear down the houses?

 

Edited by charlie clown

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11 minutes ago, charlie clown said:

Problem is that it could become a rabbit hole - salve trader makes donations to philanthropic causes including city infrastructure, has statue erected, street named after him, some of his money is used to put houses on the street plus may be a hospital and a school, maybe a library.. Take the statue down, sure. Rename the street, perhaps. Pull down the hospital, schools, library? Tear down the houses?

 

It’s an existentialist debate too

one thing is  for certain, this will become an episode of South Park soon 

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1 hour ago, Will said:

Nuanced in what way...? Don''t tease

I mean I was all like, tear the b*****ds down, and while I wouldn’t prosecute, or disagree with their feelings, I think it’s an opportunity to listen to black voices like Lawrence who has made this subject a lifetime of research.

I guess I’m now saying I don’t know enough.

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31 minutes ago, cymrococh said:

What do you think the motivation behind naming a street after someone was?

Renaming streets or removing statues may be tokenistic, but it's tokenistic in the right direction.

No doubt the intention was to honour them. I have no idea which particular slave trader Bold Street in Liverpool is named after, for example - I'd suggest there's very little honour still being bestowed on him.

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1 minute ago, Falconhoof said:

I mean I was all like, tear the b*****ds down, and while I wouldn’t prosecute, or disagree with their feelings, I think it’s an opportunity to listen to black voices like Lawrence who has made this subject a lifetime of research.

I guess I’m now saying I don’t know enough.

I agree

and that’s why for now I’d take the plaque/visitor centre route

that said, this is what happens when people have legitimate grievances, easy to deal with,  and they just get swatted away for decades 

And now we’re in a circus - to quote Churchill (sic) we’re wasting time on this tomfoolery while there’s a war on 

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41 minutes ago, charlie clown said:

Problem is that it could become a rabbit hole - slave trader makes donations to philanthropic causes including city infrastructure, has statue erected, street named after him, some of his money is used to put houses on the street plus may be a hospital and a school, maybe a library.. Take the statue down, sure. Rename the street, perhaps. Pull down the hospital, schools, library? Tear down the houses?

 

There is no moral equivalence between renaming a street named after a slave trader and tearing down a public facility, built from their money, that people actually get use from. Germany haven't felt the need to tear up roads built by the Nazis as far as I know but they obviously wouldn't have them named after them.

There is an argument that the communities most affected by the slave trade should get most benefit from those facilities however, which could be done in a number of ways.

I think the whole 'Where does this end?' stuff is a bit of a red herring.

24 minutes ago, Will said:

No doubt the intention was to honour them. I have no idea which particular slave trader Bold Street in Liverpool is named after, for example - I'd suggest there's very little honour still being bestowed on him.

This is all valid but equally I'm quite happy for the decision  to be made based on discussions within the communities thise his actions affected. There is obviously an argument for keeping them so as to not hide history.

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People talk about rewriting history as if it's a bad thing, rewriting the history of the British Empire to emphasise the oppression and crimes rather than the 'glory' is a very valid venture.

Rewriting history is literally what historians do.

Edited by cymrococh
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