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libero

Scottish Independence

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Well as expected Boris has refused the call for the Scottish Parliament to be allowed to ask the question about a Second Referendum citing the "once in a generation" quote used during the first.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/857586/Nicola_Sturgeon_20200114.pdf

 

Nothing to do with democracy and having a mandate to ask the question.

 

Using the same premise surely during the same referendum that the only way to stay in the EU was to vote remain along with all the other broken promises.

 

https://www.snp.org/broken-promises-by-tories-and-no-campaign-since-indyref/

 

Better together aye??

 

This is going to get messy.

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There's a Commons bill being introduced that will - for any referendum of any kind -

1) Up the "pass" vote margin to 60%

2) Require minimum 55% voter turnout

3) Require a 2/3 majority in both the Commons and Lords to pass it.

 

https://twitter.com/AUOBCymru/status/1216846056815767566

 

Yes. This will get messy.

Hadnt seen that before .

 

Lets just change the rules to suit themselves after the most momentous feck up possible.

 

Surely to feck the courts will get involved with that big time.

Edited by libero

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You had your chance. You're stuck with us now.

 

giphy.gif

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If it's ever achieved I will be applying for dual-citizenship.

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There's a Commons bill being introduced that will - for any referendum of any kind -

1) Up the "pass" vote margin to 60%

2) Require minimum 55% voter turnout

3) Require a 2/3 majority in both the Commons and Lords to pass it.

 

https://twitter.com/AUOBCymru/status/1216846056815767566

 

Yes. This will get messy.

 

Wait, are these sensible rules for a major constitutional change or unfair.

If it's ever achieved I will be applying for dual-citizenship.

 

My surname is Anderson so legally they have to give it to me.

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Wait, are these sensible rules for a major constitutional change or unfair.

1 & 2 are. 3 is designed as a block on any kind of change - and would have prevented Brexit (as well they know)

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3) Require a 2/3 majority in both the Commons and Lords to pass it.

 

Is it possible that you've missed the "Before the referendum is held..."? Unless there is more to the bill, or I'm misreading that section.

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Is it possible that you've missed the "Before the referendum is held..."? Unless there is more to the bill, or I'm misreading that section.

Yes. Yes it is :banghead:

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1 & 2 are. 3 is designed as a block on any kind of change - and would have prevented Brexit (as well they know)

 

 

Yeah, so are they sensible rules or not?

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However that still puts a major block on any possible Scottish or Welsh independence, because if a mainly English Commons and Lords blocks a vote on something that, it's potentially a big problem.

 

It's a useful veto if the potential referendum appears pointless - but if it's looking like it may be a viable vote and it gets blocked from even happening then it's going to get very messy.

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Yeah, so are they sensible rules or not?

 

The requirement for 60% is wrong imo, a simple majority is best

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The requirement for 60% is wrong imo, a simple majority is best

 

 

What do you think of the rest. It felt like during the Brexit one a lot were saying that a higher burden should have been required for something so big.

However that still puts a major block on any possible Scottish or Welsh independence, because if a mainly English Commons and Lords blocks a vote on something that, it's potentially a big problem.

 

It's a useful veto if the potential referendum appears pointless - but if it's looking like it may be a viable vote and it gets blocked from even happening then it's going to get very messy.

 

How do you navigate that beyond voting out MPs at an election?

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If it's ever achieved I will be applying for dual-citizenship.

 

 

As I have discovered, Dual Nationality is great but if it's only you are eligible and not your family the benefit is diluted somewhat.

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What do you think of the rest. It felt like during the Brexit one a lot were saying that a higher burden should have been required for something so big.

 

How do you navigate that beyond voting out MPs at an election?

Well we have no chance of changing anything with only 59 MP's in Scotland, hence the reason they wanted the decision to hold a referendum to be devolved.

High and Supreme Courts are gonna be busy over next couple of years.

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As I have discovered, Dual Nationality is great but if it's only you are eligible and not your family the benefit is diluted somewhat.

 

I'm assuming that it's the same rules as playing for your country, if a parent or grandparent was in, then you can qualify... in which case both me and my kids will be OK. Mrs/.C might have to fight her own battle on that one. But I'll support as much as I can, from my bothy in Caithness.

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What do you think of the rest. It felt like during the Brexit one a lot were saying that a higher burden should have been required for something so big.

 

Turnout is probably defendable but I'm not sure I'd want the job of doing it, think the 2/3rds majority in Parliament is also wrong. I disagree that a higher burden should be required for something so big because it essentially means that one group of voters count for less 

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No, to me it doesn't fit with the principles of a representative democracy. Then again nether do many of the processes, mechanisms and outcomes of British government in general.  

Edited by charlie clown

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How do you navigate that beyond voting out MPs at an election?

It's impossible to navigate beyond - you can't solve the problem of English MPs voting in the best interests of England in this case. That won't even cause a ripple in most of their constituencies and may even make them more popular in some.

 

The situation where you'd have polls indicating a strong majority of the referendum getting 60% which in turn leads to a high turnout, then the Commons saying "piss off" is ridiculous

 

Unless the requirement is for a majority is 2/3 of the MPs from affected constituencies - but that doesn't solve the issue of the vote in the Lords as they aren't really geographically aligned.

Edited by Gethin

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I'm assuming that it's the same rules as playing for your country, if a parent or grandparent was in, then you can qualify... in which case both me and my kids will be OK. Mrs/.C might have to fight her own battle on that one. But I'll support as much as I can, from my bothy in Caithness.

 

My problem is, I have Irish Citizenship (of which I am proud) and I continue enjoy the benefits of EU citizenship,the right to live in and travel to member states with minimal formalities. My wife and sons don't have this right although strangely, any Grandkids can if they claim their heritage. So she might get the hump if I jump the queue at Malaga Airport whilst the blue passport brigade find out what taking back control of your borders is actually about?......

Edited by Murphman

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Surely if this 60% threshold is pushed, they'll use the GFA example of a simple majority in an Irish border poll?

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I remember this thread last time. Surprising number of people against the idea of the Scots leaving as I recall.

 

That ref started the slow f*** uppery of the Labour Party as well. Brown et al standing on the same platform as the Tories against Scottish Indy meant labour were and still are finished north of the border for a lot of people.

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Can anyone explain Corbyn's support of Irish republicanism and insistence that Scotland and Wales stay in the UK?

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