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that was tried in the MLS i think, years back. it was rubbish.

I enjoyed the Hockey penalty shoot outs at the Olympic though

 

 

I think the penalty shoot out should consist of two 1 on 1s, two pens, a free kick

 

 

If still level after that we move to a crossbar challenge sudden death

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Just have a fist fight between the two team captains in the center circle instead. Or maybe the two managers?

 

I reckon Tony Pulis can handle himself, which would suit his agenda for grinding out goalless draws.

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  • 10 months later...

Does anybody have access to the text of the offside law (Law 11) that was in effect in the 70s? (old copy of the Laws of the Game or a Rothmans Yearbook on a shelf, maybe?) I thought I'd be able to find that online, but no success.

 

Relates to the debate about this if anybody remembers: http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/videos/254631/retro-football-referee-causes-uproar-by-allowing-offside-jeff-astle-goal-and-costing-leeds-the-first-division-title-1971-video.html

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IIRC, the caveats to being offside when in an offside position, other than those about the ball was last played from a goal kick, corner kick or throw-in (or by an opponent), were straightforward. The Ref could deem you NOT offside if you were either 'not interfering with play' or 'not seeking to gain an advantage'. There was no 'phases of play' guff, so if you got involved in any way - what would now be termed active - you would get called; and to be honest, most times, the Refs ignored the above caveats and concentrated on whether you were in an offside position or not. So the Ref was acting perfectly within his remit and the Laws to say Suggett was not offside, but I would contend such lassitude was not common at the time.

 

*See also Alec Lindsay's disallowed belter in the 74 Final. Keegan was fleetingly offside in the middle of the area as Lindsay was released into the box, and despite him not being involved at all in the goal, the decision was not technically incorrect, particularly given the interpretation at the time.

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Well in the case of the WBA-Leeds match, what I thought was Colin Suggett was seeking to gain an advantage so the correct decision is offside. However the counter-argument is that Tony Brown never passed the ball (he actually intercepted a pass from Norman Hunter) and ran onto it himself. This is the bit where I'm not clear on what the rule said about that. I don't think it ever said anything about "when the ball is passed" or anything like that, but something more general like "when the ball is played". I also heard it claimed that the ball had to be played/passed 'towards' the offside player, but I suspect that's not accurate.

 

This is why I'm trying to find exactly what Law 11 said before its various changes in the 90s and later.

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Just as an aside, I watched that clip of the George Best goal against Gordon Banks at Windsor Park again this morning.

 

What was wrong with it to be disallowed?

Just watched it, you're not allowed to do that

 

 

This is from a world cup play between Bahrain and T&T, 2:49, same thing happened and the ref disallowed it

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Well in the case of the WBA-Leeds match, what I thought was Colin Suggett was seeking to gain an advantage so the correct decision is offside. However the counter-argument is that Tony Brown never passed the ball (he actually intercepted a pass from Norman Hunter) and ran onto it himself. This is the bit where I'm not clear on what the rule said about that. I don't think it ever said anything about "when the ball is passed" or anything like that, but something more general like "when the ball is played". I also heard it claimed that the ball had to be played/passed 'towards' the offside player, but I suspect that's not accurate.

 

This is why I'm trying to find exactly what Law 11 said before its various changes in the 90s and later.

The operative word was 'played', I'm pretty certain, so even dribbling with the ball could technically invoke an Offside decision against someone on the other side of the pitch.

 

The 'seeking to gain an advantage' clause was the one that was most open to interpretation/abuse and got scratched from the newer versions. That is the phrase which the retort about 'you shouldn't be on the pitch if you aren't..." ought to refer to, (it's probably apocryphal, and ascribed to variously Shanks, Clough, Mee etc.) but it usually gets rolled out in reference to the 'interfering with play' exemption - which is more reasonable and definable (cue Phil Thompson - seriously - scoring at Anfield by running through with Toshack injured on the ground in an off-side position, and the defenders all appealing in vain).

 

My take would be (and my Dad was a Football League linesman in those days, so I'll check with him) that passing towards the player would be interpreted as bringing them into play, unless they made a big show of not being interested (like Rugby players holding their hands in the air when in an off-side position)

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The operative phrase was 'at the point (time?) the ball was last played', I think. Could be a pass, deflection, anything. In the WBA instance, that Brown intercepted the pass rather than passing it to Suggett was not an issue - Suggett could have been called off-side at that point.

 

However, that Brown ran on himself, and Suggett does not appear to have carried on running forward nor got in the area to support him, could be taken as him foregoing his positional 'advantage' so as Brown would not get pulled up.

 

The combination of Brown running onto his own interception and Suggett holding back somewhat would support the Ref's interpretation; but many would have simply blown up as soon as Brown connected.

Edited by JRC
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ok here it is:

 

Best clearly does have his foot up so 'dangerous play' was the right decision.

 

However, you can imagine a player nipping in to knock the ball away just as the ball reaches its lowest point as the GK's about to kick it. Surely that would be legal?

The operative phrase was 'at the point (time?) the ball was last played', I think. Could be a pass, deflection, anything. In the WBA instance, that Brown intercepted the pass rather than passing it to Suggett was not an issue - Suggett could have been called off-side at that point.

 

However, that Brown ran on himself, and Suggett does not appear to have carried on running forward nor got in the area to support him, could be taken as him foregoing his positional 'advantage' so as Brown would not get pulled up.

 

The combination of Brown running onto his own interception and Suggett holding back somewhat would support the Ref's interpretation; but many would have simply blown up as soon as Brown connected.

the way I see it was Suggett was at one point seeking to gain an advantage and then changed his mind when he realized Brown was running through - maybe the ref didn't see that, but apparently the linesman did (and the camera).

 

If that's true then he should have been given offside, I think.

 

The possible disagreements seem to be:

1) he wasn't seeking to gain an advantage

2) he was seeking to gain an advantage, but that's irrelevant because Brown 'played' the ball to himself

3) other?

Edited by John am Rhein
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The Alec Lindsay disallowed goal is here (about 4:50):

 

It seems pretty clear that Keegan's in an offside position and, even though he doesn't actually touch the ball, interfering with play with his dummy. Even if you argue that he wasn't interfering with play it's also pretty clear that he was seeking to gain an advantage. So rightly offside, I think - even under today's rules let alone those of 1974.

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