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DazzlaJ

EU Referendum

EU Referendum  

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http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/labour

 

Would need some serious swings for a majority. Honestly wouldn't surprise me if no one got more than 280 seats we had another election in the Spring. But then a majority of either form wouldn't either; there'll be some really odd results in some seats that have no historical basis for happening you'd guess.

 

This won't be an election with anything like a uniform national swing. But if it were, a swing of 2.5% makes Labour the largest party. It's not unfeasible, far from it.

Reckon we should move the chat to the election thread as I don't want to be complicit in making this election all about f***ing brexit?

 

Good shout

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Reckon we should move the chat to the election thread as I don't want to be complicit in making this election all about f***ing brexit?

 

Kinda why I started the thread. :)

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We are discussing the merits of voting on a motion that would allow the local party to talk to the Labour Party about the potential of standing down, seeing what the LP had to offer us etc - no decisions made, nothing really controversial and already people have been banned from the discussion and two blokes are in the process of arranging a fist fight. It's absolutely pathetic.

That’s amazing!

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We are discussing the merits of voting on a motion that would allow the local party to talk to the Labour Party about the potential of standing down, seeing what the LP had to offer us etc - no decisions made, nothing really controversial and already people have been banned from the discussion and two blokes are in the process of arranging a fist fight. It's absolutely pathetic.

 

Nottingham East selection meeting was the scene of a 'disturbance ' that the party are refusing to comment on.

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You've given up on socialism then?

If one thing has become clear on here over the last couple of years it is that he was never a socialist.

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You've given up on socialism then?

 

given up on socialism in one country - or, to be accurate, never supported socialism in one country in the first place

If one thing has become clear on here over the last couple of years it is that he was never a socialist.

 

are you referring to me? If so I can confirm that I am and always have been a socialist.

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given up on socialism in one country - or, to be accurate, never supported socialism in one country in the first place

 

This is a ridiculously lazy answer

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I don't require any effort from you John but given your stated contempt of the "stupid" that voted for Brexit you may want to avoid stupid arguments

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I don't require any effort from you John but given your stated contempt of the "stupid" that voted for Brexit you may want to avoid stupid arguments

 

it's not a stupid argument. A key component of socialism for many people is internationalism. This brexit rubbish is anti-internationalist.

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It is a very stupid argument when you consider remaining in the EU more important to the realisation of socialism than actually electing socialists. When you're weighting is so perverse as

 

May+Remain > Corbyn+Leave

 

you don't have much idea about how socialism can be realised internationally.

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Correct.

 

Internationalism extends beyond the f***ing EU and the EU is perfectly demonstrating it's Internationalism or lack of by letting people die every f***ing day at it's borders.

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Internationalism extends beyond the f***ing EU and the EU is perfectly demonstrating it's Internationalism or lack of by letting people die every f***ing day at it's borders.

I purposefully didn't highlight his bit about Brexit because of that reason, and I am in complete agreement with you on true internationalism.

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Internationalism extends beyond the f***ing EU and the EU is perfectly demonstrating it's Internationalism or lack of by letting people die every f***ing day at it's borders.

 

this is a perfectly sound argument, but not for leaving the EU nor in any way opposing the EU. The EU is self-evidently an internationalist organization to a far greater degree than the United Kingdom or Republic of Ireland is.

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Cool because let's not forget the creation of an EU Commissioner for protecting the European way of life which makes it clear just how it's internationalism stands.

 

It's a terrible argument to suggest that protecting this institution at the expense of electing socialists does more for internationalism, substituting british chauvinism for western chauvinism isn't the massive victory some would claim.


this is a perfectly sound argument, but not for leaving the EU nor in any way opposing the EU. The EU is self-evidently an internationalist organization to a far greater degree than the United Kingdom or Republic of Ireland is.

 

So is NATO, so was the f***ing empire. It's a terrible argument.

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Cool because let's not forget the creation of an EU Commissioner for protecting the European way of life which makes it clear just how it's internationalism stands.

 

It's a terrible argument to suggest that protecting this institution at the expense of electing socialists does more for internationalism, substituting british chauvinism for western chauvinism isn't the massive victory some would claim.

 

So is NATO, so was the f***ing empire. It's a terrible argument.

 

you seem to have fallen foul of your own rule about avoiding stupidity

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The EU purports to promote internationalism but it only does as far as it helps its foundational aims of creating a super state. When Barroso was EU President he said : "I like to compare the EU as a creation to the organisation of Empire. We have the dimension of Empire". It has a militarised police force (European Gendarmerie Force), its own Navy and is pushing to create its own army. Its relentless push east has created war in Ukraine and empowered Putin. It is not expanding to bring freedom and democracy - it is expanding because that is what neoliberalism demands of it.

 

As far as the EU being socialist it appears socialist because it has generally established policy as an average of the policies of the leading member states. It just happens the UK has been centre right for a very long time so that it appears socialist to us whereas it's just standards taken for granted in places like Germany and Spain where workers have greater freedoms and a reasonable degree of unionisation and right to protest, strike and be involved at director level. When a full member such as Greece tries to move towards real socialism it is crushed mercilessly. 

 

It has the illusion of democracy because the members of the EU Parliament are elected. Not so the European Commission. The seat of power is not in Parliament it is in the Commission and the Directorate General who all operate without accountability. This is the throne of neoliberalism in Europe with close relationships with the worlds financial institutions and industrial elite. Theoretically the Parliament has some power to hold the Commission to account and also votes on the Commission President. Yet this has never been true in actuality. What is democratic about voting for the EU Commission President with one name on the ballot paper ?  The Parliament has no real power and cannot for example put forward laws. The Parliament can vote to amend laws established by the Commission - but only if the Commission decides to accept the amendments ???? The Parliament is a huge exercise in giving the EU an appearance of democracy.

 

The European Court of Justice is a power unto itself. It is not bound by its own laws or by precedent and can apply or ignore them as they wish. Bailouts are flat out illegal yet they have been used famously to prop up both major financial institutions and the EU itself, for example. Alternately there are real barriers to state interventionism and nationalisation when it doesn't suit the EUs purposes.

 

 

The EU is far  better than nationalism. But not because it embodies the principles of democracy and equality, rather because of some of the social and international forms demanded by neoliberalism and expansionism. It is not socialist but appears so on the surface. True socialism - democratic socialism - is a real alternative and can be built upon fundamentals of equality and democracy instead of them being a by product and a means to an end.

Edited by Flight

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