Class

[Swan Red]

By what definition of bourgeoisie are they the majority in post industrial states?

 

I think you're right with regard to considering problems of inequality on a global scale but I don't know that the separation between those that have and those that don't can be considered only in these terms.

[pipnasty]

Been reading a book by Mark Fisher recently called 'The Ghosts of My Life' which is a series of essays and writings on things such as depression, hauntology, Jimmy Savile, David Peace, Joy Division etc. Bloody good it is too.

 

Fisher also wrote a book a few years ago called 'Capitalist Realism' which links 'political' depression with neo-liberalism and is interesting bearing in mind some of the comments in the Robin Williams thread.

 

But, he also touches upon class in a couple of articles that I have read over the last few days and says this;

 

“We must recover confidence that we can change things while recognising the many reasons why we don’t recognise our own power. Everything is set up so that we don’t recognise it, to obstruct class consciousness. Class consciousness is anything but spontaneous. It grew when there were mediating agencies that propagated it: political parties, trade unions, working class associations. Neoliberalism destroyed or subdued those agencies. After years of defeat there is a collective depression on our side.”

 

“Neoliberalism has sought to eliminate the very concept of class – we will only undermine resubordination through the experience of us acting together as a class. This could become a self-fulfilling spiral of the opposite kind to the depressive loop that grips us. The more we act as a class, the more power we attain."

 

From here

 

Kinda similar to what I was saying earlier on in this thread.

 

There is also a fascinating exchange with Franco Berardi who has also linked depression and politics in the past. Again, really interesting stuff about how to potentially overthrow neoliberalism.

 

Here

[Kvarme Ate My Food]

You'd want to present a bit if evidence if you were coming out with something like that wouldn't you?

It sounds feasible enough but so do half a dozen alternative theories.

[Duncan Disorderly]

There are two classes, the 1% that owns everything, and then the rest of us who don't.

 

There are two classes within the rest of us, those who are seen to be middle class but will still be tied to a wage and will never be part of the 1%, and the rest who do the lottery twice a week.

 

Then there is the poverty-stricken, the homeless, the destitute in both the so-called "West" and "developing countries". These people don't waste their time on whether or not there is such a thing as "class".

 

There are much more important things in life...

 

Like killing off the 1% and ensuring the full eradication of money and notion of property.

[Kvarme Ate My Food]

So there are two classes, but actually there are three, but then again there are four or five?

[Duncan Disorderly]

So there are two classes, but actually there are three, but then again there are four or five?

It's a sub-text

[Swan Red]

“We must recover confidence that we can change things while recognising the many reasons why we don’t recognise our own power. Everything is set up so that we don’t recognise it, to obstruct class consciousness. Class consciousness is anything but spontaneous. It grew when there were mediating agencies that propagated it: political parties, trade unions, working class associations. Neoliberalism destroyed or subdued those agencies. After years of defeat there is a collective depression on our side.”

 

“Neoliberalism has sought to eliminate the very concept of class – we will only undermine resubordination through the experience of us acting together as a class. This could become a self-fulfilling spiral of the opposite kind to the depressive loop that grips us. The more we act as a class, the more power we attain."

 

My reading list is pretty long, I've just received Beyond Chutzpah by Finkelstein after checking him out off a reference by you so cheers for that, but I would like to know who he thinks constitutes these classes and how he understands class consciousness. I'm not seeing what their import is, i'm not seeing any interests that are unique or universal and in the absence of this don't understand what class explains.

[John am Rhein]

By what definition of bourgeoisie are they the majority in post industrial states?

 

I've always assumed that a key difference is between those who have the means to save for the future and those who don't - so by that definition the 'middle' class are a clear majority in countries like britain.

 

At the same time, I always thought that those who own the 'means of production' (the actual bourgeoisie as opposed to the pseudo- or wannabe-bourgeoisie mentioned above) comprise a distinct class in their own right - and clearly NOT a majority despite various tory stunts like selling off gas, electricity, rail, etc. in an effort to boost the numbers of their populat-capitalist dream class.

 

In summary: all power to the soviets!

[Swan Red]

I've always assumed that a key difference is between those who have the means to save for the future and those who don't - so by that definition the 'middle' class are a clear majority in countries like britain.

 

At the same time, I always thought that those who own the 'means of production' (the actual bourgeoisie as opposed to the pseudo- or wannabe-bourgeoisie mentioned above) comprise a distinct class in their own right - and clearly NOT a majority despite various tory stunts like selling off gas, electricity, rail, etc. in an effort to boost the numbers of their populat-capitalist dream class.

 

In summary: all power to the soviets!

 

Yeah you gave that answer to the thread a couple of years ago when I asked what defined the middle class and I remember it as one of the better answers but I think on reflection it is too precarious. Having a child may be the difference between a couple with similar incomes and outgoings having the means to save for the future. I'm not sure I would want to suggest that they are different classes especially when the currently childless couple having a child would move them from middle to working class. I'm also not sure the loss or gain of employment should be decisive to class status when the person who is unemployed moves from working to middle class on starting work.

 

I'm kinda with you on the actual bourgeoisie but I don't think the rest are adequately understood as the proletariat.

[John am Rhein]

Why shouldn't it be precarious? Maybe the ultimate factor that determines that the interests of the 'middle' class are directed against the (real) bourgeoisie is this actual fact of precariousness.

 

I see this whole structure as what marx's manifesto describes as 'bourgeois socialism' but it's far more persistent and hard to move beyond than he appears to have recognized.

[Swan Red]

If it's precarious it's inapprropriate to talk about middle class and working class interests being distinct. If you're suggesting that the middle class interests best be directed to the real bourgeoisie then what distinguishes those interests from those of the working class? If their interests are the same and the distinctions precarious why is the distinction necessary at all?

[John am Rhein]

I see it as a distinction between actual and perceived interests of the people who make up the 'middle' class. Some people's position is more precarious than others' of course, but the general tendency is to create a false sense of alignment between the middle class and the real bourgeoisie, I.e. the ruling class. Imo, this is often expressed in terms like 'aspirations', 'bettering yourself', etc. As well as the ability to save money, I think property ownership plays a big part in this.

[£440,000]

I'm a union rep at work and had an argument with boss/owner of the company last year about pay rises. He said we didn't need one as rents had gone down, while we argued that it would be nice to earn enough to save some money and to have the possibility to buy instead of renting. He basically implied we were being greedy.

 

He owns seven buildings in the city, which are collectively worth millions.

 

This year we've 'won' the right to receive a three-yearly increment that the law states we should be paid anyway.

 

Some things never change.

[pipnasty]

Been listening to quite a few Mark Fisher interviews and presentations in the last 24 hours (cheers Vic) and this one really stands out. The quality gets better a few mins in. This is crucial stuff.

 

[Swan Red]

Brilliant that. I've thoughts that I may post when I've figured them out but I'm wondering how my views of class have changed since posting the OP.