Just back from my holidays

[jimbolala]

Was away for a week in centreparcs and didn't have much access to wifi. Got home and part from the usual walk or not to walk caper, there has been a bit if a barny about KKK flags (just what we need, more bigots), a bakery that doesn't want to bake gay cakes and Garth Brooks. I wonder what time the next boat is at?

[dunner74]

Was away for a week in centreparcs and didn't have much access to wifi. Got home and part from the usual walk or not to walk caper, there has been a bit if a barny about KKK flags (just what we need, more bigots), a bakery that doesn't want to bake gay cakes and Garth Brooks. I wonder what time the next boat is at?

 

The bakery story is mad, what are they thinking? have they never heard of the Equality Act? I am sure they know that no one could refuse to serve a black person, so not a great stretch to think that you can refuse to serve a gay person.

[Nebraska Red]

Go to Arizona, they have all manner of crazy rules out there.

[Ostrich Man]

Pedantry I know, but they didnt refuse to serve a gay person, they refused to put the image and wording requested on...its not as if it was a gay bloke being refused a sausage roll...this being the north I could see bakerys on the shankill getting orders for IRA cakes tomorrow and falls rd bakerys getting 12th july cake orders etc

[Tobes Rafa]

I don't think that's pedantic. You're right, they didn't refuse to sell a pre-made product to the customer because they were gay, they refused to create a special cake for them because they claimed it was against their christian beliefs. Right or wrong, they have every right to to that.

[Swan Red]

I don't think that's pedantic. You're right, they didn't refuse to sell a pre-made product to the customer because they were gay, they refused to create a special cake for them because they claimed it was against their christian beliefs. Right or wrong, they have every right to to that.

 

What if they were hoteliers and refused to accommodate a gay couple because it was against their Christian beliefs?

[Gerry]

Right or wrong, they have every right to to that.

 

Are you sure about that?

[Swan Red]

Are you sure about that?

 

I think it's more complicated than most realise.

 

What if a member of the Westboro Baptist Church approached the baker and asked for a cake celebrating their views, what if the baker refused on the grounds that the WBC's views offended his religious beliefs, would the baker have the right to refuse?

[cymrococh]

What if they were hoteliers and refused to accommodate a gay couple because it was against their Christian beliefs?

I think there's a subtle difference between that and decorating a cake.

 

I'm not sure how to articulate it though.

[Swan Red]

I think there's a subtle difference between that and decorating a cake.

 

I'm not sure how to articulate it though.

 

It feels like there is but is it worse to not write congrats Vic and Bob on a cake or refuse to let Vic and Bob stay in your hotel? Idk by the way but it's an interesting discussion, there were a Cornish couple that were directed to not refuse to accommodate gay couples a while back and they were denied that right.

[Gerry]

I think it's more complicated than most realise.

 

What if a member of the Westboro Baptist Church approached the baker and asked for a cake celebrating their views, what if the baker refused on the grounds that the WBC's views offended his religious beliefs, would the baker have the right to refuse?

 

Indeed. The bakers have quite rightly mentioned that they refuse some decorations on the grounds that they are obscene. In the Bert and Ernie case it's quite simple though - have they broken the law by refusing to create this cake; and I haven't a friggin clue whether they have or haven't.

[matty]

Indeed. The bakers have quite rightly mentioned that they refuse some decorations on the grounds that they are obscene. In the Bert and Ernie case it's quite simple though - have they broken the law by refusing to create this cake; and I haven't a friggin clue whether they have or haven't.

If they run a service of decorating cakes and they will do them for heterosexuals but not for homosexuals then it's the same as refusing to provide any other sort of service, be that as a hotelier or anything else.

 

If there was something obscene in what they were asked to do then it would be different, IMO.

[johngibo YPC]

It feels like there is but is it worse to not write congrats Vic and Bob on a cake or refuse to let Vic and Bob stay in your hotel? Idk by the way but it's an interesting discussion, there were a Cornish couple that were directed to not refuse to accommodate gay couples a while back and they were denied that right.

 

It wasn't a 'congrats Vic and Bob' cake though. It was a cake with a slogan supporting gay marraige.

Its a political statement, and I think it changes things slightly.

[Boca]

The inclusion of Queerspace on the decoration has muddied the waters a bit.

[Swan Red]

It wasn't a 'congrats Vic and Bob' cake though. It was a cake with a slogan supporting gay marraige.

Its a political statement, and I think it changes things slightly.

 

Yeah you're right it does, idk it's a tough one because we'd all agree that someone should be able to refuse to serve the WBC a cake with god hates gays on it. I understand how they are different but legislating for one and not the other seems tough.

[Tobes Rafa]

Are you sure about that?

No I'm not actually, just assuming. Surely everybody has the choice to turn down an order for whatever reason they choose. I don't think it relates to hotelier example SR uses as they are not refusing to offer a service to the couple, just the particular service requested. If the couple wanted to buy one of their pre-made "Congrats on your wedding day" cakes there would have been no problem.

 

Thinking of it from a football perspective, if I was a cake maker and someone came to me asking to make a cake with an anti-LFC slogan I would refuse point blank and would have every right to do so. I realise having an "anti" slogan is completely different to a positive message such as this couple were looking for but I would still have the right to refuse.

 

I think.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Tobes Rafa

[jimbolala]

It is a tough one with the cake. gay marriage is still not legal here and some people have strong religious views on it. I got a bit I stick on FB last night over it as I don't quite thinks its a black/white case as some are arguing . Like a previous poster mentioned , what if someone wanted an anti LFC cake or someone stupidly went onto the falls /shankill road and asked for the opposite political affiliation on a cake. It's murky at best and dilutes from the up and comin strike. Groups on the left should be concentrating on that

[Ostrich Man]

If they run a service of decorating cakes and they will do them for heterosexuals but not for homosexuals then it's the same as refusing to provide any other sort of service, be that as a hotelier or anything else.

 

If there was something obscene in what they were asked to do then it would be different, IMO.

projecting a little...if a heterosexual girl asked for a cake with "Support Abortion in Northern Ireland" Id say theyre the type that would refuse that. Its not that theyre refusing cause theyre homosexuals its the promotion of Gay Marriage that theyve an issue with.

 

 

as is clear throughout this thread its a toughie...

[5InIstanbul]

Very murky water these.

 

I know you're not likely to get many Jihadists in cake shops but suppose one asked for a cake decorated to commemorate the great victory of 9/11?

 

Does agreement count as offensive, or refusal as religious discrimination?

 

Complicated stuff all this.

[cymrococh]

Very murky water these.

 

I know you're not likely to get many Jihadists in cake shops but suppose one asked for a cake decorated to commemorate the great victory of 9/11?

 

Does agreement count as offensive, or refusal as religious discrimination?

 

Complicated stuff all this.

9/11 has nothing to do with Islam as a religion, so couldn't really be discussed in those terms.

[5InIstanbul]

9/11 has nothing to do with Islam as a religion, so couldn't really be discussed in those terms.

I agree but that may depend on whether you take the view that Jihad is a religious duty.

 

Anyway, it wasn't meant to spark a debate on that, merely a further example of the possible complexities.

Edited July 9, 2014 by 5inIstanbul

[Gunga Din]

Was away for a week in centreparcs and didn't have much access to wifi. Got home and part from the usual walk or not to walk caper, there has been a bit if a barny about KKK flags (just what we need, more bigots), a bakery that doesn't want to bake gay cakes and Garth Brooks. I wonder what time the next boat is at?

 

its a pretty f***ed up country when the cancelling of Garth Brooks cocerts creates a bigger public outcry than a load of dead children in Tuam

[D.Boon]

Moral of the story is don't bother with a wedding cake. Saves money and avoids a public outcry.

[matty]

9/11 has nothing to do with Islam as a religion, so couldn't really be discussed in those terms.

It does/did.

[Boca]

its a pretty f***ed up country when the cancelling of Garth Brooks cocerts creates a bigger public outcry than a load of dead children in Tuam

 

The country has been in the s***ter for 7 years but the two biggest outcries have been Garth Brooks gigs and Brian O'Driscoll getting dropped by the Lions.