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New York Red

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Why isn't this getting more publicity? The outrages there get worse and worse.

 

Now there is evidence of a chemical attack which killed over 1000 people in one go and there doesn;t seem to be a ripple from anyone (other than the French who seem to be the only ones concerned this morning).

 

100,000 civilian deaths and counting. What the f*ck??????? There was justifiable outrage at what was happening in Iraq ten years ago and if this was Israel killing 1000 at a clip the world's governments would be going mental. But, Assad gets a pass for some reason. It's bizarre and wrong.

 

(Apologies if there is another thread somewhere. I looked back five pages and couldn't see anything. Please merge if there is one. Thanks)

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Sure. The escalation for a start. Syria has been going on and on. A sustained campaign against its own population with deliberate massacres of civilians. Egypt is early days in comparison and the intent is very different.

 

I'm not in favour of military coups and subversions of the political system, for the record. I'm also not in favour of the way that Morsi was running Egypt either. Letting his pals run roughshod over the Christians wasn't very cool for a start. But, there is an electoral process to take care of that, not violent coups.

 

 

Cheers. My memory is getting worse than Murph's. FACT.

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Why isn't this getting more publicity? The outrages there get worse and worse.

 

Now there is evidence of a chemical attack which killed over 1000 people in one go and there doesn;t seem to be a ripple from anyone (other than the French who seem to be the only ones concerned this morning).

 

100,000 civilian deaths and counting. What the f*ck??????? There was justifiable outrage at what was happening in Iraq ten years ago and if this was Israel killing 1000 at a clip the world's governments would be going mental. But, Assad gets a pass for some reason. It's bizarre and wrong.

 

(Apologies if there is another thread somewhere. I looked back five pages and couldn't see anything. Please merge if there is one. Thanks)

 

I think the argument that Israel gets a harder time than Syria from "the world's governments" is difficult to sustain.

 

And would you really like to see Syria in 2013 treated in the way Iraq was in 2003?

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Why isn't this getting more publicity? The outrages there get worse and worse.

 

Now there is evidence of a chemical attack which killed over 1000 people in one go and there doesn;t seem to be a ripple from anyone (other than the French who seem to be the only ones concerned this morning).

 

100,000 civilian deaths and counting. What the f*ck??????? There was justifiable outrage at what was happening in Iraq ten years ago and if this was Israel killing 1000 at a clip the world's governments would be going mental. But, Assad gets a pass for some reason. It's bizarre and wrong.

 

(Apologies if there is another thread somewhere. I looked back five pages and couldn't see anything. Please merge if there is one. Thanks)

I'm not being trite here, but it isn't 100,000 estimated civilian deaths, it's an estimated 100,000 deaths total including approximately 30,000 Syrian army and police against a similar number of rebels, .

 

I am very wary considering the massive amount of misinformation surrounding Syria of accepting that mass deployment of a chemical weapon occured and that it was instigated by the Syrian government, it needs time and investigation.

Edited by Spion kop
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Well the pics and videos of all those dead people are there to see. Videos of lifeless kids and no sign of violence on the body. You can argue that it was not Assad who did it, but seeing that he is not allowing UN inspectors to visit that area, it is not unreasonable for people to think that he has killed even more innocent people, as he has been doing for ages.

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Well the pics and videos of all those dead people are there to see. Videos of lifeless kids and no sign of violence on the body. You can argue that it was not Assad who did it, but seeing that he is not allowing UN inspectors to visit that area, it is not unreasonable for people to think that he has killed even more innocent people, as he has been doing for ages.

When and where did they die, what killed them, who killed them, All facts that need to be established. I don't want the Government making policy on video evidence that is from a purely partisan source.

 

Why would the Syrian government which had previously not deployed any chemical weapons on such a scale utilise them the day independent UN inspectors arrive in the country.

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he can do it because he can get away with it. No chance of the US getting involved militarily with Russia, China and Iran at his back.

 

because he enjoys killing his own? Assad is many thing but he's no Saddam

 

 

most of the bad press of late have been against the rebels, a lot of the syrians who were pro revolution at the start have changed their opinion because of the way the revolution has been taken over by the Islamists

 

It doesn't make any sense for him to do this now, with the whole world watching

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I think the argument that Israel gets a harder time than Syria from "the world's governments" is difficult to sustain.

 

And would you really like to see Syria in 2013 treated in the way Iraq was in 2003?

 

Well Hass, I do see a hugely different level of public vitriol against Israel than has occurred against Syria. All bad deeds are bad admittedly, but the disproportionate level of death committed by Assad in comparison to the public condemnation is bizarrely low. People were going mental when Israel attacked Gaza, yet in this case, not so much.

 

I would not advocate and Iraq MKII in Syria. I can't say I wouldn't encourage a similar strategy to what happened in Libya though.

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Well Hass, I do see a hugely different level of public vitriol against Israel than has occurred against Syria. All bad deeds are bad admittedly, but the disproportionate level of death committed by Assad in comparison to the public condemnation is bizarrely low. People were going mental when Israel attacked Gaza, yet in this case, not so much.

 

I would not advocate and Iraq MKII in Syria. I can't say I wouldn't encourage a similar strategy to what happened in Libya though.

 

because things are so great now in Libya

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Well Hass, I do see a hugely different level of public vitriol against Israel than has occurred against Syria. All bad deeds are bad admittedly, but the disproportionate level of death committed by Assad in comparison to the public condemnation is bizarrely low. People were going mental when Israel attacked Gaza, yet in this case, not so much.

 

I would not advocate and Iraq MKII in Syria. I can't say I wouldn't encourage a similar strategy to what happened in Libya though.

The total destruction of the Assad Governments millitary infrastructure in a country that has tens of thousands of Islamists linked with Al Quaeda in Iraq armed to the teeth by Saudis.

 

Consider who will control the rubble.

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because he enjoys killing his own? Assad is many thing but he's no Saddam

 

 

most of the bad press of late have been against the rebels, a lot of the syrians who were pro revolution at the start have changed their opinion because of the way the revolution has been taken over by the Islamists

 

It doesn't make any sense for him to do this now, with the whole world watching

he has killed tens of thousands since this started, the man is a tyrant.

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UN inspections which could establish the truth behind accusations that 1,300 people were massacred using chemical weapons in Syria have been delayed by realpolitik and bureaucracy, it has been claimed.

 

The team of 20 specialists is stuck at the Four Seasons Hotel in the Syrian capital, just 12 miles from the site of one of the attacks, waiting for permission to gain access.

 

A formal request to the Syrian government to allow UN inspectors to investigate the latest alleged gas attack in the suburbs of Damascus was sent tonight, according to a statement from the office of the UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon.

 

The UN was meeting again tonight, but a separate statement it was due to release on the deaths has been diluted at the insistence of China and Russia, allies of the Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

 

The US, Britain, France and Germany have demanded that the inspectors should be immediately allowed to go to the area affected, Ghouta, east of Damascus. The leader of the UN’s team of investigators, Ake Sellström, said: “It looks like something that should be looked into… We are in a place to do so.”

 

But the UN Deputy Secretary-General, Jan Eliasson, insisted in New York that the “security situation does not permit” visits to the area for the time being. He also stressed that doing so would need the explicit consent of the regime and this might take time as it would require a change to the mandate under which the inspectors were allowed into Syria.

 

The team arrived on Sunday after months of negotiations to investigate three occasions when chemical agents are alleged to have been used. They were at the village of Khan al-Assal, north of Aleppo; Ataybeh near Damascus; and the Homs region. Under their terms of operation, the inspectors will try to ascertain whether chemical weapons had been used, but will not apportion blame.

 

When the team arrived, Syria’s deputy foreign minister, Faisal Mekdad, declared: “I assure you, on behalf of the Syrian Arab Republic, that we will fully co-operate with this team and provide it will all information we have and all facilities to reach a rational conclusion. Our basic target is for this team to find facts on ground.”

 

The investigators were expected to be in the field within 24 hours of arrival in Syria. But there were initial delays due to security concerns before the reports of the mass deaths surfaced on Wednesday. Today, residents of Khan al-Assal said they would not permit inspectors to enter their area until Ghouta was investigated.

 

Officials in Damascus have continued to strongly deny that the regime was responsible for the use of a weapon of mass destruction, claiming that video footage of dead and dying men, women and children was “terrorist propaganda”. A Foreign Ministry spokesman said discussions had been held for the UN team to be taken to Ghouta, but he could not say when this would take place as there were “logistical and security issues”.

 

Specialists in chemical agents pointed out that delays in acquiring samples would mean that meaningful evidence would dissipate. Philippe Vincent, who has carried out research into the use of WMDs in conflicts, said: “Extremely valuable time is being lost here. Traces of Sarin, if that was allegedly used, do not last for long. If there is an active cover-up then munitions used to carry out the assault can be removed. The video footage was quite graphic and indicated symptoms of possible poisoning, but it was just footage at the end of the day; you need to have research on the ground.”

 

The Russian government stated that it wanted the UN and the regime to come to an agreement as soon as possible for the inspections to take place. However the Kremlin claimed that opponents of President Assad may have carried out the killing to discredit him. A Foreign Ministry spokesman, Alexander Lukashevich, said the Russian government had “information” that rockets carrying toxic chemicals could have been fired from a rebel-held suburb.

 

“This all smacks of an attempt, at any cost, to establish grounds for forwarding the demands of the enemies of the regime to the Security Council,” he said, pointing to the timing of “this crime near Damascus” and the arrival of the UN team as evidence of “premeditated provocation”.

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This reminds me of Bosnia. Plenty of bureaucrats wringing their hands while innocent people get slaughtered.

 

 

 

On which point I was sickened to read this yesterday :

 

A life of torture, starvation and executions: Inside North Korea’s horrifyingly cruel prison camps

 

United Nations expert panel in Seoul hears harrowing evidence from former inmates

 

 

A mother made to kill her own baby. Starving children forced to eat live rats and frogs. Public executions. Torture. Mutilation. These are just a few of the horrific yet routine occurrences in North Korea’s prison camps, according to two former inmates who testified today before a United Nations commission of enquiry in Seoul, South Korea. The Pyongyang regime, by contrast, denies such camps even exist.

 

The commission, which intends to interview 30 North Korean defectors over five days in a lecture hall at Yonsei University, marks the first time the country’s human rights abuses have been put before an expert UN panel.

 

Among its first witnesses was 31-year-old Shin Dong-hyuk, who escaped from the gulag in 2005 and recently published a memoir of his experiences. Mr Shin was born and grew up in the infamous Camp 14, and said his earliest memory was of a public execution.

 

He later informed on his own mother and brother to save himself, and was made to watch their execution, too. He saw a seven-year-old girl beaten to death for stealing a few grains of wheat. When he accidentally dropped a sewing machine, he said: “I thought my whole hand was going to be cut off at the wrist, so I felt thankful and grateful that only my finger was cut off.”

 

A second defector, 34-year-old Jee Heon-a, said prisoners often resorted to eating salted frogs in an effort to stave off extreme hunger. She also recalled seeing a mother ordered to kill her own baby. A prison guard “told the mother to turn the baby upside down into a bowl of water,” Ms Jee said.

 

“The mother begged the guard to spare her, but he kept beating her. So the mother, her hands shaking, put the baby face down in the water. The crying stopped and a bubble rose up as it died. A grandmother who had delivered the baby quietly took it out.”

 

Between 80,000 and 120,000 political prisoners are incarcerated at five vast prison camps in North Korea, according to a 2013 White Paper on the country’s human rights abuses by Seoul’s Korea Institute for National Unification.

 

“Many inmates end up losing their life,” the paper reported, due to “forced labour, torture, degrading mistreatment, poor nutrition and lack of medical care.”

 

The country’s young leader, Kim Jong-un, has demonstrated little interest in veering from the aggressive, isolationist foreign policy course of his father, Kim Jong-il. Since taking power in 2011, the younger Mr Kim has ramped up North Korea’s nuclear weapons and rocket programmes, not to mention his own combative rhetoric. Pyongyang also vehemently denies responsibility for any human rights violations, describing such claims as a “political plot” to undermine the regime.

 

Though the commission is seen by many as being years overdue, it nonetheless comes at an awkward moment, just as relations between North and South Korea appeared to be warming.

 

On Sunday, Pyongyang announced that it had agreed to hold talks with Seoul over reuniting families who were separated by the Korean War some 60 years ago.

 

As the UN panel heard its first testimony, the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross, Peter Maurer, arrived in Pyongyang to discuss the resumption of such reunions.

 

Experts believe the commission is likely to have little concrete effect, and although it is intended partly to publicise the problem, only a few dozen people – many of them journalists – attended the first day’s hearing in Seoul.

 

The chairman of the commission, Michael Donald Kirby, said that the panel would “seek to determine whether crimes against humanity have occurred,” but that: “It is not possible at this moment to envisage the level of detail that the commission will be able to achieve in establishing lines of responsibility, if any.”

 

And yet, while people in Seoul seemed largely uninterested in the commission, the news is expected to trickle through to their impoverished neighbours to the north, where campaigners believe it will leave a far deeper impression.

 

Kim Sang-hun, chairman of South Korea’s Database Centre for North Korean Human Rights, told Reuters: “People here don’t realise how important this is. It will have a tremendously powerful impact across North Korea.”

 

 

That story stayed on the front page at the Indie for less than half a day. It had to make way for the far more important stories about Jennifer Ellison having engine trouble and some Moroccan broadcasters daughter showing up on air.

Edited by Flight
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Yep. Another hell hole that has gotten too much of a pass (not that there is much anyone can do about it presently without an agressive change in attitude from China).

 

I read that blokes book. It is horrific. It's hard to believe how inhuman people can be.

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Doesn't make much sense for Assad to do this, especially as he's had the upper hand against "the rebels" lately

 

because he enjoys killing his own? Assad is many thing but he's no Saddam

 

most of the bad press of late have been against the rebels, a lot of the syrians who were pro revolution at the start have changed their opinion because of the way the revolution has been taken over by the Islamists

 

It doesn't make any sense for him to do this now, with the whole world watching

It makes perfect sense - the world is watching Egypt ATM, not Syria. Take the chance to finish off the civil war....why not? He's a psycho. Not on Saddams scle, but he's awful.

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It makes perfect sense - the world is watching Egypt ATM, not Syria. Take the chance to finish off the civil war....why not? He's a psycho. Not on Saddams scle, but he's awful.

Any solution in Syria must accept that the Assad government is not a mad dog but a rational actor. The absolutism of "Assad must go" has been counterproductive in searching for any peaceable solution.

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Any solution in Syria must accept that the Assad government is not a mad dog but a rational actor. The absolutism of "Assad must go" has been counterproductive in searching for any peaceable solution.

It's rational to gas your own people? Interesting.

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