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EU in or out


aka Dus

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I'd likely vote to stay in. However, it would be nice to be asked, and asked to ratify a treaty every now an then. The fear of democracy that fills so many pro EU politicians is shabby and feeds the anti EU sentiment. All the musings and constructions of these and their predecessors have not delivered a great functioning economic institution, without which the rest is fragile. It is what we have though, and it is salvageable, but not by expanding the institutions.

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Be good to have an open debate on the matter which a referendum would provoke. That way the benefits of the EU could be seen rather then the rhetoric that usually comes out about bananas being the wrong shape because of Brussels diktats.

 

Seems to have pissed the French off too so it must be a good thing.

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I'd likely vote to stay in. However, it would be nice to be asked, and asked to ratify a treaty every now an then. The fear of democracy that fills so many pro EU politicians is shabby and feeds the anti EU sentiment. All the musings and constructions of these and their predecessors have not delivered a great functioning economic institution, without which the rest is fragile. It is what we have though, and it is salvageable, but not by expanding the institutions.

Democracy?

 

It's not even anywhere near the sort of British "democracy" where a "majority" government is elected by about 30% of the electorate even bothered to turn out.

 

Still, there should be even more European expansion in my view, eventually; although this would be generations away; moving to a one world government. Any kind of nationalism is anathema to me.

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Be good to have an open debate on the matter which a referendum would provoke. That way the benefits of the EU could be seen rather then the rhetoric that usually comes out about bananas being the wrong shape because of Brussels diktats.

 

There will be no sensible debate at all - there never is. Legalisation of drugs, legalistion of prostiution, immigration issues, proprtional representation... all of them major political issues high on the agenda over the last few years, none of them provided with any real forum for serious debate. Just shouty t***s refusing to listen to the other side of the arguments. All it does is polarise and entrench opinion.

 

Cameron is a f***wit.

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There will be no sensible debate at all - there never is. Legalisation of drugs, legalistion of prostiution, immigration issues, proprtional representation... all of them major political issues high on the agenda over the last few years, none of them provided with any real forum for serious debate. Just shouty t***s refusing to listen to the other side of the arguments. All it does is polarise and entrench opinion.

 

Cameron is a f***wit.

 

 

So the alternative is the shut the f*** up and carry on?

 

Yes, there will be lots of propaganda from various viewpoints with much of it aimed at the lowest common denominator, or Sun readers as they're known.

 

There's also likely to be a lot of well researched, well thought out opinion pieces and analysis.

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So the alternative is the shut the f*** up and carry on?

 

Yes, there will be lots of propaganda from various viewpoints with much of it aimed at the lowest common denominator, or Sun readers as they're known.

 

There's also likely to be a lot of well researched, well thought out opinion pieces and analysis.

We elect governments to represent us in Europe. The idea that we need to be asked to rubber stamp their opinions is pretty ridiculous.

 

If this was a principled stand by Cameron, it might be a different matter. The real reason he's gone for this is because he can't lead his backbenches, because UKIP's poll ratings are scaring him, and because he thinks it puts Labour in a bind. Plus it probably makes Murdoch happy.

 

In reality it causes immense damage to our influence in Europe (the irony!), our economy, and our politics. 'In five years time we're going to ask you what you think' must be the worst political gambit ever. Of course, it plays well to a large section of the media, and to a certain strata of society.

 

While the Guardian, Indy and Times will run some intelligent pieces, the rest of the country will be subject to the bendy bananas, elf and safety, euro-b******s that we hear most of the time.

 

We could end up outside the EU because Cameron has taken a short-term political viagra pill. Brilliant.

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We elect governments to represent us in Europe. The idea that we need to be asked to rubber stamp their opinions is pretty ridiculous.

 

If this was a principled stand by Cameron, it might be a different matter. The real reason he's gone for this is because he can't lead his backbenches, because UKIP's poll ratings are scaring him, and because he thinks it puts Labour in a bind. Plus it probably makes Murdoch happy.

 

In reality it causes immense damage to our influence in Europe (the irony!), our economy, and our politics. 'In five years time we're going to ask you what you think' must be the worst political gambit ever. Of course, it plays well to a large section of the media, and to a certain strata of society.

 

While the Guardian, Indy and Times will run some intelligent pieces, the rest of the country will be subject to the bendy bananas, elf and safety, euro-b******s that we hear most of the time.

 

We could end up outside the EU because Cameron has taken a short-term political viagra pill. Brilliant.

 

I don't think the referendum will happen, ostensibly because I doubt Cameron will be in power, and I agree it's a bizarre bit of political brinkmanship. Nonetheless I'd still welcome the debate - EU strategy wasn't exactly high on any election manifesto or played a significant part in voters choices and given the changes that have occurred across the EU it makes sense to rationalize or renegotiate aspects of the membership as it evolves. That doesn't mean the man in the street should be given that choice (as you say, that's down to our elected representatives) but the reality and complexity of the current situation does need more debate and analysis at all levels. It's complex, important and should be understood better by the electorate - hopefully when they do come to renegotiate terms that analysis and communication of it will become more apparent but I doubt it.

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We elect governments to represent us in Europe. The idea that we need to be asked to rubber stamp their opinions is pretty ridiculous.

 

If this was a principled stand by Cameron, it might be a different matter. The real reason he's gone for this is because he can't lead his backbenches, because UKIP's poll ratings are scaring him, and because he thinks it puts Labour in a bind. Plus it probably makes Murdoch happy.

 

In reality it causes immense damage to our influence in Europe (the irony!), our economy, and our politics. 'In five years time we're going to ask you what you think' must be the worst political gambit ever. Of course, it plays well to a large section of the media, and to a certain strata of society.

 

While the Guardian, Indy and Times will run some intelligent pieces, the rest of the country will be subject to the bendy bananas, elf and safety, euro-b******s that we hear most of the time.

 

We could end up outside the EU because Cameron has taken a short-term political viagra pill. Brilliant.

 

 

He's knocked Nigel Farage out clean cold never to get off the canvas again, the right are united again. The price could be enormous, the public at large are generally dimwits.

Edited by Murphman
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No 'shake it all about option'. Disappointing that.

 

I'd like to think that the country is enlightened enough to realise the numerous benefits of being part of Europe. I wouldn't bet on it though.

 

however the chances of Cameron and the Tories being in power after the next election are far from nailed on. He didn't get in last time, despite a hatchet job by the media on Brown and Labour. No one is going to vote for the Lib Dems next time.

 

This is all piss and wind to keep the far right of his own party on side.

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He's offering a referendum after the next election. Think it's a ploy to head off the rising threat of UKIP and try and secure an overall majority at the election. Something will come up after that to prevent a referendum taking place.

Yeup, my thoughts exactly. Its a promise made purley to stay in power which he will never follow through, usual conservative way of doing politics; help the wealthy; f*** the poorer; make a false promise to win the next election; repeat untill the general voting nation suddenly crack on to what they are doing or someone with a bit of charisma comes along leading one of the other parties.

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So the alternative is the shut the f*** up and carry on?

 

Yes, there will be lots of propaganda from various viewpoints with much of it aimed at the lowest common denominator, or Sun readers as they're known.

 

There's also likely to be a lot of well researched, well thought out opinion pieces and analysis.

 

Not at all - but the likelihood of there being a sensible debate on it is very remote. The well reasearched and thought-out pieces will no doubt be in abundance but they'll be read by about 0.5% of the electorate. The rest of em'll be idiotically hanging on the every word of the likes of Littlejohn and Clarkson.

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It sounds a lot like Tory desperation to improve their opinion poll ratings and base a strategy around going into the next election in a couple of years. They are trying to make Europe the focal point of that election, in order to distract from their woeful management of the economy, knowing that there is a lot of unfounded anti EU feeling in Britain,which they can attempt toharness by dangling the referendum carrot.

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He's knocked Nigel Farage out clean cold never to get off the canvas again, the right are united again. The price could be enormous, the public at large are generally dimwits.

Yeah right. that's what it looks like today - a bit like George Osborne's budget looked good in the few hours after he delivered it.

 

Farage will be energised by this. He's forced the tories to adopt his agenda. This encourages him to go for more, and faster. If Farage is a decent politician (big if) he'll be swanning round calling himself the real Foreign Secretary.

 

We have to unpick the detail now. What are the circumstances in which Cameron would recommend a 'no' vote? What does he need to gain to recommend a 'yes' vote? Why won't he tell us?

 

Headline on one paper today - Berlusconi congratulates Cameron on EU pledge. Just the kind of support Dave needs.

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I'd like to think that the country is enlightened enough to realise the numerous benefits of being part of Europe.

 

I'd like to think Naomi Watts and Scarlett Johansson haven't phoned me up yet because they're organising my suprirse threesome

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I'd like to think Naomi Watts and Scarlett Johansson haven't phoned me up yet because they're organising my suprirse threesome

 

Erm, I'm not sure how to tell you this, but it's Bailo and Big Wayne organising that particular surprise party for you.

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Yeah right. that's what it looks like today - a bit like George Osborne's budget looked good in the few hours after he delivered it.

 

Farage will be energised by this. He's forced the tories to adopt his agenda. This encourages him to go for more, and faster. If Farage is a decent politician (big if) he'll be swanning round calling himself the real Foreign Secretary.

 

We have to unpick the detail now. What are the circumstances in which Cameron would recommend a 'no' vote? What does he need to gain to recommend a 'yes' vote? Why won't he tell us?

 

Headline on one paper today - Berlusconi congratulates Cameron on EU pledge. Just the kind of support Dave needs.

If he is still in power, he's going to mooch round, get tossed crumbs from Merkel, take them, say he got what we wanted and recommend a yes. There will be no detail. There will be no lines.

 

But as you say, Farage, Cash et al will be asking for lines. Loads of them. And they aren't going to stop asking and they aren't going to get answers and they are going to attack him for being weak and vague, and they will do so insidiously. I think this is bad for the country, bad for the Conservative Party.

 

EDIT: But it makes Cameron's next twelve months easier.

Edited by Knox_Harrington
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