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HMV


smithdown

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is worth less than a Fabio Borini

 

 

 

HMV is in talks with banks over its future following worse-than-expected trading in the runup to Christmas, the new chief executive of the entertainment group says.

 

Trevor Moore, who joined HMV from the camera chain Jessops, said current market conditions suggested the group would not meet expectations for the year to April. As a result, the terms of its bank loans were not likely to be met in January and April, placing the future of the 238-strong chain under threat.

 

HMV said like-for-like sales fell 10.2% in the 26 weeks to 27 October as its pre-tax loss narrowed to £36.1m, compared with £50.1m the previous year. The dismal results come despite reports that HMV has received £40m in financial support from its suppliers in a bid to keep it going over the festive period.

 

HMV shares crashed more than 40% in early trading on Thursday morning, to just 2.375p, giving the retailer a market value of just £10m.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/dec/13/hmv-banks-poor-pre-christmas-trading

 

so one day soon it'll be "you used to buy music in a shop? that doesn't even make any sense!"

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Sad. An outlet that just can't compete with online sales.

 

Be weird when you can't just wander round a record shop anymore.

 

I wander round them a fair bit and they seem pretty s*** tbh. I think the decline of vinyl and the branching out into other stuff just leaves them with the stuff that you know before you go in. It's harder to unearth some stuff.

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Be weird when you can't just wander round a record shop anymore.

It will, there's still a good record shop in Cardiff but it's a bit of stereotype in that they only stock 'good' stuff.

 

Gone are the days of buying an album purely on the basis of the cover.

 

Used to be a staple that you'd lash some music about as prezzies at chrimbo, obviously not much of it about anymore.

I still do it, I'm amazing at presents though.

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HMV has been doomed for a year or so.

 

This has been going on for a bit longer than that. Its hard to have sympathy with them considering the s*** that they have given distributors over the years.

 

I think the decline of vinyl

 

What timeframe are you talking about? Vinyl manufacturing and sales have increased over the past 3 years.

A lot of it bypasses HMV as they cant pay for their stock. Its going out there to various online and independent retail stores

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What timeframe are you talking about? Vinyl manufacturing and sales have increased over the past 3 years.

A lot of it bypasses HMV as they cant pay for their stock. Its going out there to various online and independent retail stores

 

Yeah tough it's still down from it's heydey and while it's online and in the specialist shops it's not in the majors, browsing vinyl is so much better than browsing cd's. There's also no risk taking in the majors which is why they don't carry vinyl.

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I think people give iTunes gift cards, it's not the same as seeing an LP wrapped under the tree.

 

 

that's rather lacking in excitement

 

I still remember one year getting The Specials, More Specials, Absolutely and One Step Beyond (which was the one I'd been asking for).

 

Beside meself now at the thought of it.

 

This has been going on for a bit longer than that. Its hard to have sympathy with them considering the s*** that they have given distributors over the years.

 

 

 

It's also a bit tricky when you realise it's the same price for an album now as it was twenty or thirty years ago. Been robbing us blind for years.

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This has been going on for a bit longer than that. Its hard to have sympathy with them considering the s*** that they have given distributors over the years.

 

Well yes, it's about three years ago the rot really started to set in.

 

I think it's just impossible for them to stay relevant on the high street any more. They're trying to sell us stuff that everyone buys online. They'll probably end up just being an online presence anyway, much like Zavvi now are.

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Yeah tough it's still down from it's heydey and while it's online and in the specialist shops it's not in the majors, browsing vinyl is so much better than browsing cd's. There's also no risk taking in the majors which is why they don't carry vinyl.

 

Depends where you are. Some of the larger major stores do carry vinyl and the sections are increasing too. Certainly not at the level of 10 years ago, but its better than it has been over the past few years when the bottom fell out of dance music vinyl sales. Now we are seeing an increase in 12" production for dance music (mainly as a reaction to a small consumer backlash to digital DJing and the technology used) and LP, 7" and 10" production for rock and indie music. Labels are being a lot more creative in what they offer the consumer, which is why you will often see a lot more coloured and splattered/marbled vinyl products available

 

Sales and manufacturing of all physical product, including CD and DVD is decreasing and will continue to decrease. Vinyl on the other hand is increasing substantially year on year in comparison. There is still a large market for physical product and labels are now offering more value added product to the consumer by way of specialist packaging. I rarely, if ever, buy digital downloads. I like to have physical product and I know a lot of people who do too.

 

If HMV falls by the wayside I dont think it will be a huge loss particularly. There are loads of other avenues to find music. Be it online or on the high street. May well be more difficult from a regional perspective, but certainly in major cities their will be a high street presence one way or the other. You can see the success of this with huge boost that Record Store Day provides for vinyl sales

 

It's also a bit tricky when you realise it's the same price for an album now as it was twenty or thirty years ago. Been robbing us blind for years.

 

Distributors were selling a CD to retail between £5.50-£6.50 about 10 years ago, so the rest was a mark up by the high street retailers. This was when CDs were retailing at around £11-12.

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Well yes, it's about three years ago the rot really started to set in.

 

I think it's just impossible for them to stay relevant on the high street any more. They're trying to sell us stuff that everyone buys online. They'll probably end up just being an online presence anyway, much like Zavvi now are.

 

Agree totally. I believe that their online business is the only section that is still economically viable

Edited by Raj
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Depends where you are. Some of the larger major stores do carry vinyl and the sections are increasing too. Certainly not at the level of 10 years ago, but its better than it has been over the past few years when the bottom fell out of dance music vinyl sales. Now we are seeing an increase in 12" production for dance music (mainly as a reaction to a small consumer backlash to digital DJing and the technology used) and LP, 7" and 10" production for rock and indie music. Labels are being a lot more creative in what they offer the consumer, which is why you will often see a lot more coloured and splattered/marbled vinyl products available

 

Sales and manufacturing of all physical product, including CD and DVD is decreasing and will continue to decrease. Vinyl on the other hand is increasing substantially year on year in comparison. There is still a large market for physical product and labels are now offering more value added product to the consumer by way of specialist packaging. I rarely, if ever, buy digital downloads. I like to have physical product and I know a lot of people who do too.

 

If HMV falls by the wayside I dont think it will be a huge loss particularly. There are loads of other avenues to find music. Be it online or on the high street. May well be more difficult from a regional perspective, but certainly in major cities their will be a high street presence one way or the other. You can see the success of this with huge boost that Record Store Day provides for vinyl sales

 

Distributors were selling a CD to retail between £5.50-£6.50 about 10 years ago, so the rest was a mark up by the high street retailers. This was when CDs were retailing at around £11-12.

 

Agree with all of this Raj, good post. I do think there's a wider question here in terms of what the internet has done to the high street (and indeed what out of town developments have done for the high street as well).

 

The only shopping I've ever really enjoyed and been able to spend hours on is books and records. There surely has to be some way that the government can offer some kind of business breaks or tax incentives to give independent shops a chance (not just books and records, but everything else as well). You go to France or Spain, you get the big chains, but there's also a lot of independent shops, coffee, books, clothes, you name it. They must be doing something to keep the character of their own economies without being swallowed by big corporates. And they're all the better for it. The Tories are always talking about entrepreneurs. This doesn't have to be thundering great brands in my view. But I don't think the current economic structures give people much of a chance.

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Depends where you are. Some of the larger major stores do carry vinyl and the sections are increasing too. Certainly not at the level of 10 years ago, but its better than it has been over the past few years when the bottom fell out of dance music vinyl sales. Now we are seeing an increase in 12" production for dance music (mainly as a reaction to a small consumer backlash to digital DJing and the technology used) and LP, 7" and 10" production for rock and indie music. Labels are being a lot more creative in what they offer the consumer, which is why you will often see a lot more coloured and splattered/marbled vinyl products available

 

Sales and manufacturing of all physical product, including CD and DVD is decreasing and will continue to decrease. Vinyl on the other hand is increasing substantially year on year in comparison. There is still a large market for physical product and labels are now offering more value added product to the consumer by way of specialist packaging. I rarely, if ever, buy digital downloads. I like to have physical product and I know a lot of people who do too.

 

If HMV falls by the wayside I dont think it will be a huge loss particularly. There are loads of other avenues to find music. Be it online or on the high street. May well be more difficult from a regional perspective, but certainly in major cities their will be a high street presence one way or the other. You can see the success of this with huge boost that Record Store Day provides for vinyl sales

 

I don't doubt this, I'm around a couple of music forums and vinyl remains the most popular format with many. It is restricted though, most people either don't have record players any more or just have the one they used to rip the vinyl to mp3. It'll remain a niche market if only because people are lazy and it requires more investment.

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I'm expecting a lot more retail to go this way.

Definitely. It'll be a few years before we see where the balance lies between the convenience and price of online and the need to look at and experience stuff in a shop.

 

I buy a fair bit online, but get really f***ed off with deliveries going home and having to wait in. My fault for not driving, I suppose.

 

It will, there's still a good record shop in Cardiff but it's a bit of stereotype in that they only stock 'good' stuff.

 

Gone are the days of buying an album purely on the basis of the cover.

Yep. I suppose some specialist independents might survive, but not enough, probably. A lot of what I used to buy was just coming across it while browsing. Buying online I just go straight to the stuff I know I want.

 

is right.

I'm not going to mourn the passing of HMV.

I agree that HMV etc were over-priced and it isn't them specifically, just the general experience of a record shop.

 

Spotify, et al, are a massive positive in terms of listening to stuff people are talking about, so it's not the end of the world by any means, but I used to enjoy spending the odd hour in HMV between trips to Armani and Prada.

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It'll remain a niche market if only because people are lazy and it requires more investment.

 

It is a niche market, but you will be surprised how much is made and sold. The company I work for manufactures 7 million units per year, mainly for the European market. Last estimate was that approx 40-50 million vinyl is being manufactured worldwide. Considering its the smallest of the markets, its good to see that its healthy market

 

I think you made a good point about investment in technology though. Its the reason why Blu-Ray never took off as expected. People were expected to have to purchase new hardware and pay more for a Blu-Ray disc than for DVD. It was too much and Blu-Ray never took off. Its now going to be superseded by online streaming and will disappear. I wouldnt be surprised if Blu-Ray production ceased before DVD production

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Agree with all of this Raj, good post. I do think there's a wider question here in terms of what the internet has done to the high street (and indeed what out of town developments have done for the high street as well).

 

The only shopping I've ever really enjoyed and been able to spend hours on is books and records. There surely has to be some way that the government can offer some kind of business breaks or tax incentives to give independent shops a chance (not just books and records, but everything else as well). You go to France or Spain, you get the big chains, but there's also a lot of independent shops, coffee, books, clothes, you name it. They must be doing something to keep the character of their own economies without being swallowed by big corporates. And they're all the better for it. The Tories are always talking about entrepreneurs. This doesn't have to be thundering great brands in my view. But I don't think the current economic structures give people much of a chance.

Yeah they are massively inefficient. :)

 

But seriously, the planning laws here made/make a big difference. We sucked the life out of our town centres in order to benefit big retailers, and people have got used to the price and range that single big shops deliver. And people stopped appreciating what smaller shops offer. The principle extends to many things, not just groceries.

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The Probe by The Bluecoat is still a lovely little shop but no idea how it keeps going.

 

Because it values its customers and charges reasonable prices. Therefore they get some loyalty in return. A lot of people would still prefer to physically buy a CD/LP than order online.

Edited by D.Boon
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