How does the England National Side become great again?

[Ant]

Our Golden Generation has gone, Gazza, Shearer, Adams, Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney and Owen. Hugely gifted players at one point probably all recognized as the best in the land. Yes I know that they all didn't play in the same side, but from the 90's onwards we've been blessed in this country at having produced some incredible talent, wasted in the national side.

 

Sadly I can't envisage anytime soon a bunch of players from this country emerging to challenge the best, the new St Georges Park will do very little to provide us with the sort of success Spain, Italy and Germany have had in recent years. Though it is a step in the right direction, about having to create an ethos around the side to push forward and develop. Looking at the Spanish national side composed mainly of Barca and Madrid players, the ethos of the Spanish National Side isn't a Spanish National Side way of playing, it's something harnessed and developed over time at club level and imported into the national side.

 

The England set up in the past has been mainly made up of Liverpool and Manchester United players, though now especially under Hodgson and Capello we've had players coming from different clubs, Bent at Villa, Hendo (when he was at Sunderland) Baines and Jagielka at Everton. We're a national side where the talent is fantastic, though the way we come together is often mixed and is simply not on the level of the sides we should be rivaling.

 

Such as the intensity and global appeal and fan-bases of the the teams at the highest level of English football, the national side isn't a priority. Though in some respects isn't it the duty of our clubs at grassroots level to provide and harness the talent to not only be the best in their club, their city, but also at national level as well. Though La Masia takes kids from all over the world, the talent they have produced for the national side has meant that they have come as successful as they have done. Without Barca, IMO Spain wouldn't have won the 3 titles they have done recently.

 

A lot of it is down to the players of course, at some level you expect players to gell and work together, though that isn't always possible. When conflicting styles exist across a large cross section of our clubs that isn't always possible. The Spanish side as we all know are composed mainly of 2 clubs, only Llorente, Capdevilla, David Villa (Valencia days), and Silva have to memory played a roll in the national side and have not come from Barca or Madrid.

 

England can only become successful once more when English talent is harnessed at a level where the style of football is similar, and they play at the highest level week in week out. Without the investment from clubs such as ourselves to implement a style of play consistent across all levels.

 

I don't envisage a scenario where we can have a truly magnicent national side once more. St Georges Park, or no St Georges Park.

[Swan Red]

To have a truly magnificent national side once more you need to have had it once. Unless you're including a team from before you were born England hasn't

[Stevie H]

'again'? 'magnificent'?

 

quite a number of talented players usually mis- or under-used. emphasis on blood'n'guts and hell for leather over technique and tactics. england will never be a top international football team while it continues to value pride and passion over the ability to keep possession of a football.

[Cobs]

current crop of players is pretty poor

 

 

 

have to hope the work clubs are doing with their academies is going to bear fruit over the coming years - i don't know how they intend to run St Georges alongside all that but in itself i don't see it making much difference

[Ant]

'again'? 'magnificent'?

 

quite a number of talented players usually mis- or under-used. emphasis on blood'n'guts and hell for leather over technique and tactics. england will never be a top international football team while it continues to value pride and passion over the ability to keep possession of a football.

 

But we've always been able to produce players of tremendous technical ability. Owen, Rooney, Gerrard, Gazza, Shearer. Thats without mentioning the 66' world cup winning side. We've had the players, but not the team.

 

Liverpool has always tried to implement the Pass and Move policy across all levels, and Rodgers is making his own mark on that. At grassroots level I don't doubt there is an emphasis of the blood'n'guts attitude, though even if that still exsists. If our clubs can put their own stamp on the players at that level we can produce players across all clubs who can come together and play the game.

 

Conflicting styles at national level will never work, natural ability + an influx of players all playing the same way will help a bunch.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Aunty-N.W.A

[Swan Red]

we haven't so much as produced those players though as they've happened like you're referring to 5 players from 20 years

[Flasher]

To have a truly magnificent national side once more you need to have had it once. Unless you're including a team from before you were born England hasn't

 

England won the world cup with a good side, got knocked out in the next one with a great side.

 

Anyway, to answer Ant's question, it starts at the bottom and is led by the top. Youth football, youth coaches and importantly the scouting network and process is still crap in this country.

 

There is still not enough value placed on technique and too much is put value is put on winning in any style. That's why people like Carlton Palmer get spotted at a young age and play international football, while the likes of Kevin Phillips is told he's too small and not given a chance until he's mid 20s. Maybe not the example for some, but one I know about.

 

Even the smaller countries Poloand etc) are producing players with greater ability these days, and importantly again, they are trusting them to make judgements on the field.

 

The English style of play is still too rigid, with too much emphasis on what to do without the ball and not enough with. The players are therefore not comfortable enough to play with any freedom and make decisions for themselves.

 

It starts in kids football and should be led by the FA. Start by getting rid of all the old guard and get new young coached involved. Germany, France, Spain, Holland all do it, no reason we can't.

 

It's a culture shift we need.

 

One thing that is interesting, is that even the current starting 11 all play a different style for their clubs. Expectation stifles this at international level for some reason, and Hodgson doesn't help.

[Hassony]

A lot of it is down to the players of course, at some level you expect players to gell and work together, though that isn't always possible. When conflicting styles exist across a large cross section of our clubs that isn't always possible. The Spanish side as we all know are composed mainly of 2 clubs, only Llorente, Capdevilla, David Villa (Valencia days), and Silva have to memory played a roll in the national side and have not come from Barca or Madrid.

 

Cazorla, Febregas, Alonso, Reira, Nevas, Torres, Alba, Marchena, Senna, soldado

[Ant]

England won the world cup with a good side, got knocked out in the next one with a great side.

 

Anyway, to answer Ant's question, it starts at the bottom and is led by the top. Youth football, youth coaches and importantly the scouting network and process is still crap in this country.

 

There is still not enough value placed on technique and too much is put value is put on winning in any style. That's why people like Carlton Palmer get spotted at a young age and play international football, while the likes of Kevin Phillips is told he's too small and not given a chance until he's mid 20s. Maybe not the example for some, but one I know about.

 

Even the smaller countries Poloand etc) are producing players with greater ability these days, and importantly again, they are trusting them to make judgements on the field.

 

The English style of play is still too rigid, with too much emphasis on what to do without the ball and not enough with. The players are therefore not comfortable enough to play with any freedom and make decisions for themselves.

 

It starts in kids football and should be led by the FA. Start by getting rid of all the old guard and get new young coached involved. Germany, France, Spain, Holland all do it, no reason we can't.

 

It's a culture shift we need.

 

One thing that is interesting, is that even the current starting 11 all play a different style for their clubs. Expectation stifles this at international level for some reason, and Hodgson doesn't help.

 

I agree with this

[Flasher]

I agree with this

 

Oh s***, now look what you've done to me

[Swan Red]

It starts in kids football and should be led by the FA. Start by getting rid of all the old guard and get new young coached involved. Germany, France, Spain, Holland all do it, no reason we can't.

 

How though? Like kids are signed to clubs and while there's Lilleshall clubs are still going to be the primary development of young talent.

[aka Dus]

England won the world cup with a good side, got knocked out in the next one with a great side.

 

Anyway, to answer Ant's question, it starts at the bottom and is led by the top. Youth football, youth coaches and importantly the scouting network and process is still crap in this country.

 

There is still not enough value placed on technique and too much is put value is put on winning in any style. That's why people like Carlton Palmer get spotted at a young age and play international football, while the likes of Kevin Phillips is told he's too small and not given a chance until he's mid 20s. Maybe not the example for some, but one I know about.

 

Even the smaller countries Poloand etc) are producing players with greater ability these days, and importantly again, they are trusting them to make judgements on the field.

 

The English style of play is still too rigid, with too much emphasis on what to do without the ball and not enough with. The players are therefore not comfortable enough to play with any freedom and make decisions for themselves.

 

It starts in kids football and should be led by the FA. Start by getting rid of all the old guard and get new young coached involved. Germany, France, Spain, Holland all do it, no reason we can't.

 

It's a culture shift we need.

 

One thing that is interesting, is that even the current starting 11 all play a different style for their clubs. Expectation stifles this at international level for some reason, and Hodgson doesn't help.

 

 

This all day long. Talk of icons and that is counter productive, it starts with a coaching philosophy and ends with great players being world class exponents of that philosophy.

 

How though? Like kids are signed to clubs and while there's Lilleshall clubs are still going to be the primary development of young talent.

 

Stopping kids going in to professional clubs until they are 15 or 16 would help from several perspectives.

[cymrococh]

More English players need to play abroad.

[Cobs]

we haven't so much as produced those players though as they've happened like you're referring to 5 players from 20 years

 

 

plenty of skilful ones you could add to that list - some used better than others - Waddle, Barnes, Beardsley, Lineker, Hoddle (maybe going back too far there), Le Tissier, Beckham, Scholes, Lampard, Fowler, Sheringham, McManaman

 

 

 

it's not an endless list but it's bigger than 5

[johngibo YPC]

Didi Hamann talks well about the difference between German and English players in his book

Its really interesting

Basically English players only care about themselves

His Gazza v Ballack comparison is very thought provoking

[Cobs]

Didi Hamann talks well about the difference between German and English players in his book

Its really interesting

Basically English players only care about themselves

His Gazza v Ballack comparison is very thought provoking

 

sounds like nonsense already

[Flasher]

How though? Like kids are signed to clubs and while there's Lilleshall clubs are still going to be the primary development of young talent.

 

Not all the best kids are at clubs. Those that are there are often too young and taught one way by the old guard that still exists in our game. It's often still the case that the wrong players are often chosen too IMO. Height, ability to follow orders etc.

 

Around the country those doing the coaching badges should be adhering to the same philosophy, upheld by the FA.

 

Money needs to be spent on facilities for those kids playing public park football. Too many are running around on s*** pitches with grass 5 inches long that encourages one style of play.

 

In some cases there are coaches of kids football trying to do the right thing. Treating kids like adults, teaching them about football off the pitch as well as on it. But too often these players at these clubs are ignored by the scouts. They want robots.

[Cobs]

and citing Paul Gascoigne as an example of the psyche of English players is ridiculous, the man is mentally unwell.

[Billy Dane]

Think you need players who are intelligent and confident enough to think for themselves on the pitch to make the right decisions.

 

A coaching philosophy that is consistent and starts at a young age which is focussed not only on technical ability but also on teamwork, I don't think England have had a strong team ethic/unity/sense of common purpose for a number of years now. Cobs is right we have had a fair number of skilful players in the past but no real sense of a team with a common goal and players buying into a shared vision.

 

Pride in the shirt, which involves not giving caps to the "Carlton Palmers" of the world, a media that doesn't crucify them for making mistakes and a real sense of achievement in playing for your country. It's interesting the amount of interviews Gerrard has given recently where he consistently talks about the pride in playing for England, the honour it is an so on.

[Flasher]

Gazza early didn't play in Italia 90, Robson wasn't sure.

 

Barnes hardly played in '86, Robson wasn't sure.

 

Even when we've had the world beaters available, the coaches haven't trusted them or given them a style of play to get the most out of them

[Eskimo]

Is Little League still going?

[growler]

The problem is the leadership. From the head of the fa through to Roy Hodgson and Stuart Pearce.

 

There is also a belief that playing the passing game is the way forward. It's a great way to play but it's not the English way. If you were to make a squad of players who have played more than 30 times for England over the last 20 years that woul give you the style and philosophy of English football

 

Finally it's the winning mentality. We don't have it.

[yellow jumper]

the impression is, and it's a point i heard being made on the radio the other day, that the club system and the national system aren't linked closely enough.

 

spain under 17s are a facsimile of the first team, the players are also going back to clubs that, in general, are doing much the same things. so they bring teams through, rather than individuals. same in germany. england, seems to me, tend to bring 1s and 2s through a national system that isn't coherent, and a club system that is dominant, with lots of teams playing in very different ways.

[Cobs]

Gazza early didn't play in Italia 90, Robson wasn't sure.

 

 

Gazza played in all England's games in Italia 90 (save for the 3rd place game)

[Woodsyla]

But we've always been able to produce players of tremendous technical ability. Owen, Rooney, Gerrard, Gazza, Shearer. Thats without mentioning the 66' world cup winning side. We've had the players, but not the team.

Compare and contrast that to what other teams have produced over that same 20 year period. 5 is really not very much at all.

 

In my opinion it starts with the kids, as long as winning the game by having bigger and stronger and faster lads is the most important thing then technique will struggle to flourish and only truly exceptional technically gifted players will be on a par with those brought up on this style of play in other countries.