The Youngsters

[Ombudsam]

50 minutes ago, Maldini said:

Former academy player Glen McCauley scored a beaut tonight

The keeper was properly Picfording that 

[kop205]

5 hours ago, sammy & a said:

The keeper was properly Picfording that 

Ha ha, you'd be fuming with him.

[Redwire]

 

 

[Aritro]

Great news!
 

Is he any good?

[Chewie]

What age do these lads have to make a significant breakthrough for them to have a serious chance of being a Liverpool player. We've seen lads like Woodburn get a game or two but not break through... 

For instance, Harvey Elliott. Saka was born in September 2001 and was playing for England in the final of the euros this summer (3 months shy of turning 20) ahead of some very highly regarded players. Maybe he's just had an amazing purple patch but it's more likely that he's genuinely the real deal and at the age of 19 had his breakthrough season. 

Harvey is an April 2003 birthday. Not that we care about this being a target for him, but if he is going to make it here and be a real star player for us, should he be targeting being considered for the World Cup in Dec 2022 (4 months shy of turning 20). To repeat, it's not about international recognition, its about what is the benchmark for a player like Harvey to be hitting that suggests we have a player of elite quality who can make it at the top of the game rather than professional footballer quality who will make a career (and a good one!) in the game...? 

Same with the young Polish kid Mateusz Musialowski. Lot of hype about him. He's a few months younger than Harvey... 

When do these lads need to breakthrough otherwise its more likely than they're just very good but not good enough

[PaulMcC186]

1 minute ago, Chewie said:

What age do these lads have to make a significant breakthrough for them to have a serious chance of being a Liverpool player. We've seen lads like Woodburn get a game or two but not break through... 

For instance, Harvey Elliott. Saka was born in September 2001 and was playing for England in the final of the euros this summer (3 months shy of turning 20) ahead of some very highly regarded players. Maybe he's just had an amazing purple patch but it's more likely that he's genuinely the real deal and at the age of 19 had his breakthrough season. 

Harvey is an April 2003 birthday. Not that we care about this being a target for him, but if he is going to make it here and be a real star player for us, should he be targeting being considered for the World Cup in Dec 2022 (4 months shy of turning 20). To repeat, it's not about international recognition, its about what is the benchmark for a player like Harvey to be hitting that suggests we have a player of elite quality who can make it at the top of the game rather than professional footballer quality who will make a career (and a good one!) in the game...? 

Same with the young Polish kid Mateusz Musialowski. Lot of hype about him. He's a few months younger than Harvey... 

When do these lads need to breakthrough otherwise its more likely than they're just very good but not good enough

If they don't have loads of pace or strength it'll likely take longer to get in as they need to a more developed all round game. If Elliott was as quick as Saka he'd not have been at Blackburn last season.

[Hightown Phil]

Saka is 18 months older and also plays for a considerably worse team, meaning he's likely able to get more chances as the way of getting him in the team is much easier. Not a chance he'd have played as many games for us as he has for Arsenal if he played for us.

We're also not much more than 12 months past people wondering if Phil Foden was ever going to be given adequate chances at City. There's no real black and white path for them I don't think. 

[PaulMcC186]

I reckon Saka still would've got plenty of games for us. He's looked like he could be top class from a few games into his first team career, and can play left back and in front 3.

Musialowski is apparently starting the season with u18s so you'd imagine he'd be a good bit away from the first team.

[Barnesy_10]

1 minute ago, PaulMcC186 said:

I reckon Saka still would've got plenty of games for us. He's looked like he could be top class from a few games into his first team career, and can play left back and in front 3.

Musialowski is apparently starting the season with u18s so you'd imagine he'd be a good bit away from the first team.

Musialowski looks outstanding. Be nice for him to feature in some of the cup games in some form. 

[Hightown Phil]

Sure he looked great from the offset, but to look good in your first few games though, you have to get those first few games and there's no real obvious path how he, at 17/18 years of age, would have. We don't have 6 European group games where we can basically do whatever we want and it not matter for example. 

[Hassony]

23 minutes ago, Chewie said:

What age do these lads have to make a significant breakthrough for them to have a serious chance of being a Liverpool player. We've seen lads like Woodburn get a game or two but not break through... 

For instance, Harvey Elliott. Saka was born in September 2001 and was playing for England in the final of the euros this summer (3 months shy of turning 20) ahead of some very highly regarded players. Maybe he's just had an amazing purple patch but it's more likely that he's genuinely the real deal and at the age of 19 had his breakthrough season. 

Harvey is an April 2003 birthday. Not that we care about this being a target for him, but if he is going to make it here and be a real star player for us, should he be targeting being considered for the World Cup in Dec 2022 (4 months shy of turning 20). To repeat, it's not about international recognition, its about what is the benchmark for a player like Harvey to be hitting that suggests we have a player of elite quality who can make it at the top of the game rather than professional footballer quality who will make a career (and a good one!) in the game...? 

Same with the young Polish kid Mateusz Musialowski. Lot of hype about him. He's a few months younger than Harvey... 

When do these lads need to breakthrough otherwise its more likely than they're just very good but not good enough

Mason mount didn't have his break out season with Chelsea until he was 21/22

[Earl Hafler]

2 minutes ago, Hassony said:

Mason mount didn't have his break out season with Chelsea until he was 21/22

When explanations make no sense

When every answer's wrong 

 

 

 

" I prefer..."

 

 

[Chewie]

Foden (born May 2000) is an interesting comparison though because he is trying to make it in one of the elite squads and so less likely than saka to get game time... But he had played in 74 games for City BEFORE last season. He's added another 50. That's serious talent being developed and featuring at the very highest level between the age of 17-19.

[PaulMcC186]

I don't think we'd have bought Tsimikas if we had someone like Saka. He'd have been around the first team and playing all the cup games. Then he'd start getting first team games. 

I agree there's no real way to say it should be done like this cos every player is different. I'd like us to have more physical youngsters. A lot of our best prospects like Clarkson and Cain are tiny. Maybe players with both the technical and physical ability are going for a lot of money even at 14 and we don't want to get involved.

12 minutes ago, Barnesy_10 said:

Musialowski looks outstanding. Be nice for him to feature in some of the cup games in some form. 

Considering how little Klopp seems to care about the cups hopefully we get to see plenty of good youngsters.

[Hightown Phil]

7 minutes ago, Chewie said:

Foden (born May 2000) is an interesting comparison though because he is trying to make it in one of the elite squads and so less likely than saka to get game time... But he had played in 74 games for City BEFORE last season. He's added another 50. That's serious talent being developed and featuring at the very highest level between the age of 17-19.

That gives Elliott the next 2 seasons to make 74 appearances to be on the same level as him at the age of 20 though doesn't it? Feels fairly manageable. 

[Mooster]

21 minutes ago, Chewie said:

Foden (born May 2000) is an interesting comparison though because he is trying to make it in one of the elite squads and so less likely than saka to get game time... But he had played in 74 games for City BEFORE last season. He's added another 50. That's serious talent being developed and featuring at the very highest level between the age of 17-19.

Guessing a fair number of those early appearances were against lower league teams in City's annual processions through the domestic cups. 

[Chewie]

11 minutes ago, Hightown Phil said:

That gives Elliott the next 2 seasons to make 74 appearances to be on the same level as him at the age of 20 though doesn't it? Feels fairly manageable. 

If he's genuinely good enough to get 30 appearances this season and be on track to add another 44 the season after then we've definitely got a real talent on our hands. That would be at the upper end of the scale of expectation and probably underscores how good Foden is to get to that level in that squad. I'd say that if he's not properly established as a first team option by the middle of next season it'll be very tough for him

[Hightown Phil]

6 minutes ago, Chewie said:

If he's genuinely good enough to get 30 appearances this season and be on track to add another 44 the season after then we've definitely got a real talent on our hands. That would be at the upper end of the scale of expectation and probably underscores how good Foden is to get to that level in that squad. I'd say that if he's not properly established as a first team option by the middle of next season it'll be very tough for him

I think he's probably a first team option now to be honest. I get the point on looking at apperances, but in that period you're talking about Foden got about 1200 minutes of Premier League football across two seasons. It really isn't a huge amount. In all comps, in 18/19 he played 25+ minutes four times, in 19/20 he did it 12 times. It's not asking a huge amount I don't think for Elliott to be playing as much as he was, and in two years time I would expect him to have probably played more than Foden at the same age. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Hightown Phil

[Chewie]

Hope you're right about him being an option now as that means he's on a trajectory that TAA, Carragher, Stevie, Robbie etc were on rather than Woodburn and others. If we decided to send him on loan again now or did not give him games this season would that undermine your confidence that he'll make it with us? 

[Hightown Phil]

Just now, Chewie said:

Hope you're right about him being an option now as that means he's on a trajectory that TAA, Carragher, Stevie, Robbie etc were on rather than Woodburn and others. If we decided to send him on loan again now or did not give him games this season would that undermine your confidence that he'll make it with us? 

It depends where the loan is. I don't think he'll go on loan but if he went to Brighton and got 30 starts that would probably give me more confidence than if he stayed here and got 4. He's very much more Trent than Woodburn though I think. 

[Nebraska Red]

Foden getting so many starts in the cup games makes a huge difference. City getting so many easy ties helps, but their huge squad is the game changer.  The likes of Foden get games under their belts and then get time in PL games. Their confidence and stature grows and they earn a regular place.

Our lads get a Shrewsbury game and then a Chelsea like game, and we're done for another year. 

It's a cycle that needs to change as our club is not, with these owners, going to go out and spend mega millions on a regular basis. 

By properly developing Foden, City have saved themselves money that can now be spent in other areas. We're left figuring out how we get sufficient games for Elliott, or who he can go to on a loan deal.

[growler]

Not sure all the United kids get games 10 years ago at United. They had a better team. 
 

for us, a player would have to be pretty amazing or pretty lucky with opportunity in the team. Phillips and Jones benefitted last season because of injuries.

Whilst appearances are important, I think starts is a greater measure. Lots of foden was coming on when game was done example. I think jones had a good number of starts last season. Elliott will this. 
 

then of course, you get a Trent. Just owns the position from first game of the season…

[Maldini]

5 hours ago, Chewie said:

What age do these lads have to make a significant breakthrough for them to have a serious chance of being a Liverpool player. We've seen lads like Woodburn get a game or two but not break through... 

For instance, Harvey Elliott. Saka was born in September 2001 and was playing for England in the final of the euros this summer (3 months shy of turning 20) ahead of some very highly regarded players. Maybe he's just had an amazing purple patch but it's more likely that he's genuinely the real deal and at the age of 19 had his breakthrough season. 

Harvey is an April 2003 birthday. Not that we care about this being a target for him, but if he is going to make it here and be a real star player for us, should he be targeting being considered for the World Cup in Dec 2022 (4 months shy of turning 20). To repeat, it's not about international recognition, its about what is the benchmark for a player like Harvey to be hitting that suggests we have a player of elite quality who can make it at the top of the game rather than professional footballer quality who will make a career (and a good one!) in the game...? 

Same with the young Polish kid Mateusz Musialowski. Lot of hype about him. He's a few months younger than Harvey... 

When do these lads need to breakthrough otherwise its more likely than they're just very good but not good enough

Different lads emerge at different ages though, from the same squad you could use the example of Kane who had loads of unsuccessful loans and only really became first choice for Spurs at 21, Mount was similar, Grealish has only really looked like a top player from age 24 onwards, Phillips was the same age before he played in the PL, Coady was released by us and was 27 before he became an international, Maguire went to Hull for less than £3m aged 22 and 5 years later became the most expensive defender in the world.

The issue with us at the moment is we're one of the best teams in the world and so trying to break into the team is like those videos of people jumping onto treadmills at 18 mph, there's no real time to get up to speed or develop.

[growler]

So what happened with that Ennis kid and do we care? 

[cymrococh]

10 hours ago, growler said:

So what happened with that Ennis kid and do we care? 

I think you mean Peethan Penis, manyoo's latest signing.