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'The economy is safe with the Tories'


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Ugh. Ok so purely on Churchill and the British aspect of the Second World War (I really don't want to go over all of his imperialism, and racism, and pre-war stuff - this is torture enough as it

Gordian Brown.  

You’ll drive yourself mad wondering what the working class want. End up tying yourself in knots like Gordon Brown. Just do what’s right, it’s much easier. Those white, English working class oap’s that

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40 minutes ago, Senrab_nhoj said:

Thing is Ant.. this is the long term tory policy of how to be able to privatise the NHS and not have a whimper from the general population...

... defund it then say we should use Amazon.  Yes its a time of crisis but this is the thin end of a very thick wedge and absolutely this is something we, as a collective wherever possible, choose this hill to die on..  

Defund the NHS and use Amazon - like I said, it's just s***e

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1 hour ago, Senrab_nhoj said:

Thing is Ant.. this is the long term tory policy of how to be able to privatise the NHS and not have a whimper from the general population...

... defund it then say we should use Amazon.  Yes its a time of crisis but this is the thin end of a very thick wedge and absolutely this is something we, as a collective wherever possible, choose this hill to die on..  

There is privatization and then there is privatization. I'm just making the point that in its current form the NHS cannot meet the demand of track and trace.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Jarg Armani said:

It's just all the sound of a person swallowing a lifetime of tabloidy, labour right propaganda.

Just life experience that's led me up to this point

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1 hour ago, charlie clown said:

With NHS-wide IT programmes the money tends to be thrown at third party consulting/implementation partners, not at the NHS itself.

I did a pre-switch-on audit for O2 who were the infrastructure provider for NHS Scotland's equivalent of NHS Direct about 4 or 5 years back and despite the audit flagging up very clearly that Deloittes (who were the actual software implementers) had not tested sufficiently, had huge gaps in their governance and, and, and... they decided to go ahead anyway and, on the day they switched it on, they had to close it because it failed as soon as the public started using it. The NHS itself had very little to do with it..   

 

I was involved in a program of works which aimed to reduce vendor neutrality within the NHS, the program was canned and someone else was brought in and suffered the same problem and wasted double the money. The decision makers are NHS folk. 

I understand why people in principle are against privatization of any form in the NHS and so am I but just looking at this particular problem, it was never going to work without private involvement

 

 

1 hour ago, Jarg Armani said:

I disagree with almost all of your points but this one is especially wrong. Saying things like infinitely more complex is both patronising to an entire country - well in -  and also factually daft. It is more complicated but the way you build anything is to use a test site (as the govt did with the isle of wight) then scale up.

It may be patronizing but its true and it not factually daft, you're ignoring the actual complexities of the health service in England and how we deliver care and public health in this country.

There are 3 NHS Trusts in Wales, 223 in England as one measurement of the complexity, that's without mentioning all the infrastructure provided centrally and throwing PHE, CSU etc. Again I'd imagine having ONE LIMS system for the entire nation also has something to do with it.

This is all a failure of our government btw 

 

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Lets be clear, if I want to be treated I go to the NHS, if I want to deliver one of the countries biggest logistical challenges in the form of mass, track, trace and development of that infrastructure across a population of 50+ Million then I'd probably have to bring a group of people together.

 

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7 minutes ago, Ant said:

There are 3 NHS Trusts in Wales,

You need to read past the first few words when you Google something - 

Quote

There are currently 3 NHS Trusts in Wales with an all - Wales focus

What NHS England call Health Trusts, Wales call Health Boards.

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26 minutes ago, Ant said:

There is privatization and then there is privatization. I'm just making the point that in its current form the NHS cannot meet the demand of track and trace.

 

What exactly is your point here? Think that there are varying levels of privatisation? (UK English here please) some that are ok and some that are not. First they came for the cleaners and no one spoke up... apologies for the b*****dised cliche here... 

This is another Tory policy, privatisation by stealth.. " oh its only less than 1% of the NHS spend... etc. etc.

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7 minutes ago, Senrab_nhoj said:

What exactly is your point here? Think that there are varying levels of privatisation? (UK English here please) some that are ok and some that are not. First they came for the cleaners and no one spoke up... apologies for the b*****dised cliche here... 

This is another Tory policy, privatisation by stealth.. " oh its only less than 1% of the NHS spend... etc. etc.

My point is that the NHS can't deliver track and trace without the support of private companies 

Basically. 

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Just now, Ant said:

My point is that the NHS can't deliver track and trace without the support of private companies 

Basically. 

Why do people think the NHS can do T and T internally? Why should they be able to do that?

It’s not what they’re set up to do

the argument here is that the award of the contract should not be a political or corrupt process

its not a given that the NHS should do it internally because they are a benign organisation 

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6 minutes ago, Ant said:

My point is that the NHS can't deliver track and trace without the support of private companies 

Basically. 

It can in Wales. Its live its working and is being done

Any comments as 'it can't in England because.. ' are speculative and generalised statements as they come. And do you know what.. its the very reason why it can't just be 'given to Amazon' as they do not appreciate the complexity and nuances that you say clearly exist.

NOW: If any health board, under its control and remit, supported its track and trace efforts with outside help in a clear targeted measures, scope and with terms of reference therefore in a controlled fashion, managed on the ground by people who were on the front line of that 'complexity' then I would back it. Not from some ivory tower in westminster

Edited by Senrab_nhoj
by not but :)
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Just now, Senrab_nhoj said:

It can in Wales. Its live its working and is being done

Any comments as 'it can't in England because.. ' are speculative and generalised statements as they come. And do you know what.. its the very reason why it can't just be 'given to Amazon' as they do not appreciate the complexity and nuances that you say clearly exist.

NOW: If any health board, under its control and remit, supported its track and trace efforts with outside help in a clear targeted measures, scope and with terms of reference therefore in a controlled fashion, managed on the ground but people who were on the front line of that 'complexity' then I would back it. Not from some ivory tower in westminster

I'm sorry they're not speculative and generalized, they're based upon at the very worst, what I know of the structures within the NHS and its ability to get large scale projects done and there are mountains of evidence of its inherent difficulties in delivering the simplest of implementations, let alone something that they've never done before in terms of a nationwide track and trace system in a pandemic. You're letting principles which I respect by the way get in the way of the facts. 

The overall response from the government to manage the Healthcare system in England has been absolutely abhorrent, a clear lack of leadership in an area complete saturated with many different bodies, with many different remits all struggling, the complexities we have introduced in England are coming home to roost, especially in a time like now.

Wales do it differently because it is different, its smaller, with fewer accountable bodies, established single throats to choke as it where and national systems supporting a population in its entirety.

How many EPR systems are there in England? 

How many Secondary Care acute are able to share data with primary care and vice versa in England?

How are they sharing COVID test results and instructions for isolation across mental health, primary and secondary care?

We can argue till the cats come home on this, but in short

If I want to get a test from a to b in the fastest time possible - I go to Amazon and see how they do it. Can the NHS do it better?

If I want to build an application capable of working on multiple phones and integrating with healthcare systems  I probably get hold of whoever I could at Apple and Google and bang hands together. Can the NHS do it better?

If I want to solve a supply chain problem, I probably get hold of SAP or IBM. Or can the NHS do it better?

If we die on this hill, we'll all die on this hill. 

 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, cymrococh said:

You need to read past the first few words when you Google something - 

What NHS England call Health Trusts, Wales call Health Boards.

according to google

 there's 7 Health Boards in Wales, 14 in Scotland

217 NHS Trusts in England

 

 

I think Ant makes a fair point. :o

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36 minutes ago, Molby said:

Why do people think the NHS can do T and T internally? Why should they be able to do that?

It’s not what they’re set up to do

the argument here is that the award of the contract should not be a political or corrupt process

its not a given that the NHS should do it internally because they are a benign organisation 

I completely agree

 

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40 minutes ago, Cobs said:

according to google

 there's 7 Health Boards in Wales, 14 in Scotland

217 NHS Trusts in England

 

 

I think Ant makes a fair point. :o

Ant said there were 3 health trusts because he only read the first few words of the google search results.

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1 minute ago, cymrococh said:

Ant said there were 3 health trusts because he only read the first few words of the google search results.

Fair enough. I think his overall point has merit.

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58 minutes ago, pipnasty said:

I did say that Serco were f***ing amazing, to be fair. An inspiration to us all

Anytime you need the services of a poorly trained, disinterested person sat in front of a laptop and on the end of a phone, if I'm not available then Serco are the next best choice

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1 minute ago, D.Boon said:

Anytime you need the services of a poorly trained, disinterested person sat in front of a laptop and on the end of a phone, if I'm not available then Serco are the next best choice

:yes:

I love the idea that privatisation is non-political - like it's some kind of natural law

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7 minutes ago, D.Boon said:

Anytime you need the services of a poorly trained, disinterested person sat in front of a laptop and on the end of a phone, if I'm not available then Serco are the next best choice

Deloittes can certainly be added to the s*** List too.

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Health protection teams are already dealing with complex track and trace cases with much higher success rates than the contracted out firms have achieved with the non-complex cases they deal with.  

Some local authorities such as Sandwell and Blackburn with Darwen have developed local contact tracing processes utilising their health protection teams for non-complex cases and have reached up to 90% of individuals that the national contracted out system was unable to contact. 

This should have been the basis for the whole system from the start using local knowledge and expertise in tracking infectious disease but they were bypassed for ideological reasons.

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4 hours ago, Ant said:

Lets be clear, if I want to be treated I go to the NHS, if I want to deliver one of the countries biggest logistical challenges in the form of mass, track, trace and development of that infrastructure across a population of 50+ Million then I'd probably have to bring a group of people together.

 

TalkTalk?

Lambrini?

What about the County Lines lads I mean f*ck me they work wonders and reach proper little nomark s***holes.

1 hour ago, Redwire said:

Health protection teams are already dealing with complex track and trace cases with much higher success rates than the contracted out firms have achieved with the non-complex cases they deal with.  

Some local authorities such as Sandwell and Blackburn with Darwen have developed local contact tracing processes utilising their health protection teams for non-complex cases and have reached up to 90% of individuals that the national contracted out system was unable to contact. 

This should have been the basis for the whole system from the start using local knowledge and expertise in tracking infectious disease but they were bypassed for ideological reasons.

They should advertise like Amazon showing their happy cake-swapping workers 

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Four words people:

managerial diseconomies of scale

its not a matter of public vs private or even good vs evil 

every large organisation is prone to it, so it’s just a case of finding an agile team (maybe within another team) to handle the situation 

meantime the ideologues  from both sides get arrested and put out of the way until the process is complete 

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