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'The economy is safe with the Tories'


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A flat lining economy, unemployment on the rise again by 80,000 to over 2.5 million, the largest fall in public sector employment since records began. The consequences of savage cuts to jump start an economic recovery has been proven to be, at best, woefully misguided and at worst deliberate. The real truth behind the endless parade of depressing statistics is that what we see unfolding before us is the ruthless execution of a criminally divisive ideology - and this before the cuts really start to bite.

So I ask the question, exactly who are the Tories representing?

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Edited by Nathan Explosion
Removed poll from topic to reduce screen space used. Poll results added as PNG file
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Ugh. Ok so purely on Churchill and the British aspect of the Second World War (I really don't want to go over all of his imperialism, and racism, and pre-war stuff - this is torture enough as it

Gordian Brown.  

You’ll drive yourself mad wondering what the working class want. End up tying yourself in knots like Gordon Brown. Just do what’s right, it’s much easier. Those white, English working class oap’s that

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The endless focusing on the Tories isn't going to do any good.

 

The problem is that Britain has been in a long period of decline since the end of WW2 (or even WW1) which goes beyond party politics and class boundaries,imo. It's been the culmination of policies from all political spectrums over that period.

 

The question that should be asked is "how do we fix it?". On that, I'm yet to hear any reasonable solutions, from anybody.

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The endless focusing on the Tories isn't going to do any good.

 

The problem is that Britain has been in a long period of decline since the end of WW2 (or even WW1) which goes beyond party politics and class boundaries,imo. It's been the culmination of policies from all political spectrums over that period.

 

The question that should be asked is "how do we fix it?". On that, I'm yet to hear any reasonable solutions, from anybody.

 

There are two different questions: waht should we be doing to secure the country's long-term economic future, and as you say, it's a very difficult one.

Then there's the question of current taxation, investment, public services, employment etc, and Mike's absolutely right to ask it in the way he does.

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The problem is that Britain has been in a long period of decline since the end of WW2

 

Explain

Doesn't seem to be true that

 

You add up all the short-term decisions together, and you get the long-term decision. The approach should always be in the longer term,imo.

All we are getting at the moment is endless point-scoring.

 

So is the problem democracy? Or at least our form of democracy?

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You add up all the short-term decisions together, and you get the long-term decision. The approach should always be in the longer term,imo.

All we are getting at the moment is endless point-scoring.

 

You are pulling two different arguments together and blending them into one. What you are saying is fundamentally incorrect in any event - that short term decisions don't impact the long term outlook as no current policy that I can see is designed to build a better future or invest in the future. Unless you have the money.

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You add up all the short-term decisions together, and you get the long-term decision. The approach should always be in the longer term,imo.

All we are getting at the moment is endless point-scoring.

 

Even on that basis, you can ask "is this the right policy for the long-term?" And the answer is no.

Why focus on the Tories? Because they're in government.

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Explain

Doesn't seem to be true that

So is the problem democracy? Or at least our form of democracy?

Basically, yes. Not that I have the solution to it, of course. The problem is that you seem to veer from one philosophy, and set of policies, to another - like somebody trying to steer a rudderless ship. When it lurches to one side, you do all you can to correct it, which causes it to lurch to the other side, and so on....

 

The decline to me is obvious. From a position as a world leader at the beginning of the 20th century, to our position now where we still seem to be searching for our role in the world, as Dean Acheson said decades ago.

Not that I'm saying the fall of the Empire was a bad thing of course, it was "good" for our country in the time it was there,but at the expense of other countries and their people.

 

It is in essence cyclical, and it looks like our time come to an end, so we really need to figure out what it is that we are going to be about. For years we prided ourselves on manufacturing and invention, now that's gone, then we prided ourselves on our financial services expertise, and it looks like that's declining in the country. So what is it exactly that we are going to do, how are we going to generate growth?

 

Just some random thoughts really, I haven't got the time to put it together coherently.

 

Even on that basis, you can ask "is this the right policy for the long-term?" And the answer is no.

Why focus on the Tories? Because they're in government.

Fair enough, it's just that I'm getting sick of the continual pointscoring that goes on,which seems to be dictated by political allegiances, and less to do with what is actually best for the country.

 

From what I can see, nobody has a coherent strategy, on either side.

Edited by The Hitman
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For me this is a key area that we should be focussing on.

It would require investment and incentivisation, both of which are in limited supply

I completely agree. For me, that's the future.

We were damned good in this country at manufacturing and industry. Granted, we're not going to be as cheap as manufacturing elsewhere, but we should pride ourselves on quality.

 

Reminds me of that great scene in Wall St with Martin Sheen, where he talks about where "we used to make things in this country".

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It is blindly obvious to anyone with half a brain that the current cuts package is too much, too soon.

 

Without wanting to go all Keynesian, its pretty obvious that if you make cuts which lead to unemployment and fear of unemployment, there will be less people spending, less people spending means more businesses close, more businesses closing means more unemployment, which leads to less people spending...

Think about how much social security all these extra unemployed must be paying. Every year tens of thousands of graduates (if not hundreds of thousands by now) are leaving university with either no job at all, or a basic job they could have gotten without needing to go to Uni. If there was confidence in the markets again like pre-2008, then a lot of these graduates would have jobs with salaries of 20k+. Instead they're paying either the minimum in tax, none at all, or in the dole queue.

 

The recent growth figures were an absolute joke as well. How they were not challenged more severely I don't know. Osbourne is too arrogant to back-track and been seen to implementing a plan b, but it can't go on for much longer.

 

There still is a lot of support for the Tories, but I'd say that's mainly down to Labour's misgivings. If Labour had a Tony Blair mid 90s figure that could galvanise support, we'd easily have a double points lead in the polls. I'm still massively underwhelmed by Ed and wouldn't be surprised to see him get absolutely trounced into 2015 (if he's still in charge)

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The problem is that you seem to veer from one philosophy, and set of policies, to another - like somebody trying to steer a rudderless ship. When it lurches to one side, you do all you can to correct it, which causes it to lurch to the other side, and so on....

 

 

It's not though. For the last 32 years economic policy has been relentlessly neo-liberal. Very little veering if any.

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A few questions need to be asked...

 

Would we better if we hadn't joined the EU?

- How much of UK moneys goes to them?

- Would it helped stem the flow of workers from EU countries?

 

Are we importing too much?

- Stop importing coal and re-open mines?

- Reduce other imports or tax them higher?

 

I also think the UK should concentrate in becoming a world leader in green energy

- Govt should have bought MG or created a new car company & get the best minds

from around the world to design a electric car thats actually works!

- Govt should also create a new energy company that is soley a nuclear power company

 

also just thought...

Doesnt the UK have large consumer electronics company similar to Samsung, LG etc...

If not why not?

Edited by Owen1978
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It is blindly obvious to anyone with half a brain that the current cuts package is too much, too soon.

 

Without wanting to go all Keynesian, its pretty obvious that if you make cuts which lead to unemployment and fear of unemployment, there will be less people spending, less people spending means more businesses close, more businesses closing means more unemployment, which leads to less people spending...

Think about how much social security all these extra unemployed must be paying. Every year tens of thousands of graduates (if not hundreds of thousands by now) are leaving university with either no job at all, or a basic job they could have gotten without needing to go to Uni. If there was confidence in the markets again like pre-2008, then a lot of these graduates would have jobs with salaries of 20k+. Instead they're paying either the minimum in tax, none at all, or in the dole queue.

 

The recent growth figures were an absolute joke as well. How they were not challenged more severely I don't know. Osbourne is too arrogant to back-track and been seen to implementing a plan b, but it can't go on for much longer.

 

There still is a lot of support for the Tories, but I'd say that's mainly down to Labour's misgivings. If Labour had a Tony Blair mid 90s figure that could galvanise support, we'd easily have a double points lead in the polls. I'm still massively underwhelmed by Ed and wouldn't be surprised to see him get absolutely trounced into 2015 (if he's still in charge)

 

They will soon have stemmed the flow of graduates.

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The most shameful thing that has happened in this country recently is the undermining of the education system and not charging for higher education. Given the state of our manufacturing and industry after Thatcher our only card is a higher standard of education, which appears to have been thrown under the bus.

 

Not that I think willy nilly higher education should be the case either. A long time ago, universities should have been directed (by subsidies from industry or some other form of incentivisation) to link the mix of higher education courses to more closely represent the requirements of the UK business landscape now and in the future.

 

Given the current global economic environment, any government is pretty much pissing in the wind at the moment, but I do agree with Hitman, that there appears to be no consistent direction of policy and goals (although 10 year or 20 years down the line is a long time with the rest of the world going down the s***ter). From where we are now, cuts or no cuts, somewhere down the line the capital markets are going to come and stab us in the back before this is all over.

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I also think the UK should concentrate in becoming a world leader in green energy

- Govt should have bought MG or created a new car company & get the best minds

from around the world to design a electric car thats actually works!

 

I don't know why a nationalised company would be any better at doing that than private companies around the world.

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I don't know why a nationalised company would be any better at doing that than private companies around the world.

 

I was thinking along the lines of job creation, also If you a create a company who just specialises in a single area

they would be much better than a company who creates various types of cars.

 

Plus it would boost exports too

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Are we importing too much?

- Stop importing coal and re-open mines?

 

I also think the UK should concentrate in becoming a world leader in green energy

- Govt should also create a new energy company that is soley a nuclear power company

 

We should have gone 100% nuclear a long time ago and told everyone to man the f*** up.

 

Deaths per TwH for all energy sources

 

Comparing deaths/TWh for all energy sources

 

Energy Source Death Rate (deaths per TWh)

 

Coal – world average 161 (26% of world energy, 50% of electricity)

Coal – China 278

Coal – USA 15

Oil 36 (36% of world energy)

Natural Gas 4 (21% of world energy)

Biofuel/Biomass 12

Peat 12

Solar (rooftop) 0.44 (less than 0.1% of world energy)

Wind 0.15 (less than 1% of world energy)

Hydro 0.10 (europe death rate, 2.2% of world energy)

Hydro - world including Banqiao) 1.4 (about 2500 TWh/yr and 171,000 Banqiao dead)

Nuclear 0.04 (5.9% of world energy)

 

Some of the analysis isn't perfect but you get the gist.

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I also think the UK should concentrate in becoming a world leader in green energy

- Govt should have bought MG or created a new car company & get the best minds

from around the world to design a electric car thats actually works!

- Govt should also create a new energy company that is soley a nuclear power company

 

 

 

This bit in particular i agree with. The country that gets this right 1st will become massively wealthy. The UK should be busting a gut to become the world leader in green energy, not just electric cars, renewable energies as well. I think a dedicated university speciailising in this area should be set up

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I was thinking along the lines of job creation, also If you a create a company who just specialises in a single area

they would be much better than a company who creates various types of cars.

 

Plus it would boost exports too

Jaguar, Bentley and Aston martin, McClaren are all British companies who specialise in certain types of car they do not employ any where near the numbers of a Ford or peugeot type business

Edited by Spion kop
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This bit in particular i agree with. The country that gets this right 1st will become massively wealthy. The UK should be busting a gut to become the world leader in green energy, not just electric cars, renewable energies as well. I think a dedicated university speciailising in this area should be set up

 

I agree that we should be pushing to develop the tech and know-how for export (but we are a long way behind the curve), however we shouldn't be using it ourselves. The cost to cosumers and the impact cost of subsidising it vs GDP is completely prohibitive at a time when are economy can't afford it. On the other hand, nuclear power would slash people's energy bills and if we were to develop the first full fledged modern fission reactors (so far only built on a small scale in Japan and the US) we would be pioneering by far the safest nuclear reactors ever built and an energy supply business that like it or not, the rest of the world is going to have to turn to.

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Jaguar, Bently and Aston martin, McClaren are all British companies who specialise in certain types of car they do not employ any where near the numbers of a Ford or peugeot type business

 

fair enough but im thinking longer much longer....

 

if for example if this electric car company becomes a world leader, whats not to say that in 10/20 years time that

they are employing as much or even more than you ford and peugeot's of the world?

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