Dubya criticises Hamas for rocket strikes

[smithdown]

just noticed on SSN that Moyes does have quite a fat nose

 

I'm hoping someone smashed their elbow into it when he was chasing round in the Fourth Division for Shrewsbury.

[Kvarme Ate My Food]

Pretty much. It makes the case for racial categorisation pretty meaningless if it's impossible to point to any characteristics that describe one of them with any certainty, other than skin colour. We've got words for colour already.

 

Black people no more share the same shaped nose - look at your Ryan Babel's or your Somalis, for instance - than White Europeans share Moyes the Noise's frizzy buggy fizzog. If racial descriptions can't get past noses then what use are they? Generalisations such as average heoight based on nationality and ethnic groups are fine, when described in those other terms you use. You could measure the people in two streets and see which street had the smaller average height. Neither of them becomes a race when you do that. DNA and inheritable characteristics are obvious. But they don't describe anything at all about racial characteristics, because they are too arbitrary to stand if you widen it beyond.

 

If Benitez's mediterrenean-ness places him in a different race (ie physical characteristics) to Moyes after all, rather than them being White Europeans, then how many times will you have to reduce that down until you are merely speaking about the Benitez family itself as a race, after Spaniards who look different to him are pointed out such as yer man Torres, and the Moyes clan as a race, if we look at Scotland and Souness, in which case it's replacing another perfectly good word we've got already.

 

No clear case can be made to prove it. Like religion, it's a matter of faith, not fact.

 

good points, ta.

[Raj]

this is getting pretty odd. does it really matter if race is a social construct?

 

Yes it does. Historical racism was centered around the theory of intellectual inferiority.

Some of these thought processes still resonate within contemporary ideas of racial/religious contempt

[Raj]

Yes it does. Historical racism was centered around the theory of intellectual inferiority.

Some of these thought processes still resonate within contemporary ideas of racial/religious contempt

 

Just seen Zoobs later posts.

Ignore this

Edited February 1, 2009 by roegahnn

[Zoob]

Edited February 1, 2009 by Zoob

[badtodabone]

shocking

 

 

Intel sources: Gazan informants intercepted by Hamas during war

 

By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff

 

Tags: Gaza, Shin Bet, IDF, Hamas

 

Intelligence organizations in Israel will examine claims that classified information was used carelessly during the fighting in the Gaza Strip, supposedly leading to the loss of intelligence "assets."

 

Senior army sources told Haaretz that the use of the intelligence was necessary in order to save the lives of soldiers who faced obvious danger during an operation, but added that the subject is one that needs to be examined in an extensive and orderly intelligence investigation of the type that normally takes place following an operation of the magnitude of Cast Lead.

 

During the recent fighting, and following it as well, Hamas executed several dozen civilians. Some of those killed were members of rival Fatah, but others were not politically affiliated.

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It appears that in most cases Hamas suspected that their victims had collaborated with Israeli intelligence.

 

However, it also appears that there were cases in which Hamas gunmen took advantage of the chaos in order to settle old scores with Fatah rivals, even if the excuse was as flimsy as seeing them smiling in the street, or appearing to express satisfaction at the Israeli offensive and the damage it caused Hamas.

 

Palestinian sources said that Hamas gunmen shot and killed civilians, and in other instances shot and wounded them in the legs "on the spot and without asking questions."

 

Among those killed were Fatah members who were spotted in the vicinity of Hamas installations bombed by the air force, and who were carrying cell phones, and could not satisfactorily explain what they were doing in that particular location at that time.

 

In one case, which was widely discussed in the Strip, Hamas gunmen kidnapped a civilian from his home, tortured him, and ripped out his eyes, because they suspected he was an Israeli agent. The man was returned to his family, but several days later the gunmen returned and murdered him.

 

the full article is here punishments

[pipnasty]

Are people surprised about reprisals against informants?

 

Any comment about the first paragraph - the one that the newspaper thought was actually the bigger story? The one that the headline refers to? The bit that wasn't put in bold by bttb?

 

"Intelligence organizations in Israel will examine claims that classified information was used carelessly during the fighting in the Gaza Strip, supposedly leading to the loss of intelligence "assets."

 

In other words, as the article continues, the IDF used Palestinian sources for intelligence and then carelessly allowing information about the identity of the informant to land at the door of Hamas. Whoops indeed.

 

Another quote from the article (and another bit that bttb failed to quote), this time from an Israeli military source;

 

"But we also heard a different argument, which said that what we are now doing is 'killing a lot of Arabs,' and therefore details like protecting those who are working for us are less important."

[pipnasty]

And if people wish to use the word 'shocking', I think it is more appropriate in this context;

 

'Shocking'

 

"Gaza's 1.5 million people are facing a food crisis as a result of the destruction of great areas of farmland during the Israeli invasion.

 

According to the World Food Programme, the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation and Palestinian officials, between 35% and 60% of the agriculture industry has been wrecked by the three-week Israeli attack, which followed two years of economic siege.

 

The wholesale destruction of farms, greenhouses, dairy parlours, livestock, chicken coops and orchards has damaged food production, which was already hit by the blockade.

 

Buildings heavily damaged during Israel's Operation Cast Lead included much of its agricultural infrastructure. The Ministry of Agriculture was targeted, the agriculture faculty at al-Azhar university in Beit Hanoun largely destroyed, and the offices of the Palestinian Agricultural Relief Committees in Zaitoun - which provides cheap food for the poor - ransacked and vandalised by soldiers who left abusive graffiti."

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/01/gaza-food-crisis

 

 

 

WTF?

[Redwire]

WTF?

 

It's par for the course, not shocking at all. It's the sort of thing they've been doing to the Palestinians for decades.

[Hassony]

shocking

 

 

 

the full article is here punishments

 

What is the punishment for spying/ treason in Israel?

[badtodabone]

What is the punishment for spying/ treason in Israel?

 

it certainly isnt torture having your eyes put out and then death

 

a long jail sentence. after a trial, some thing these people seem to have been denied

Edited February 1, 2009 by badtodabone

[Hassony]

it certainly isnt torture having your eyes put out and then death

 

a long jail sentence. after a trial, some thing these people seem to have been denied

 

Do you have the death penalty in israel?

[Zoob]

Thing is, it's already been established, and I don't think anyone on here denies the fact that Hamas are scum who don't have the Palestinian people's best interests at heart.

 

Find it slightly sinister that in the days after the 'war' ended, Hamas spokesman come out talking about the need for unity, and working with Fatah (as in the vid pip posted), while at the same time murdering god knows how many Fatah members

[pipnasty]

it certainly isnt torture having your eyes put out and then death

 

a long jail sentence. after a trial, some thing these people seem to have been denied

 

 

And yet absolutely no comment about the slow and deliberate starvation of the civilian population in Gaza? Some people might start to use the term genocide to describe this.

[pipnasty]

Thing is, it's already been established, and I don't think anyone on here denies the fact that Hamas are scum who don't have the Palestinian people's best interests at heart.

 

 

What do the people of Gaza think of Hamas?

[badtodabone]

Do you have the death penalty in israel?

 

yes its been used once to kill adolf eichman

[badtodabone]

And yet absolutely no comment about the slow and deliberate starvation of the civilian population in Gaza? Some people might start to use the term genocide to describe this.

 

i think there have been plenty of comments about the closure of the Gaza Israel border.

 

genocide ? are there any figures on people starving to death in Gaza? has anybody died of starvation in Gaza?

[Zoob]

What do the people of Gaza think of Hamas?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if support had increased due to Israel's actions, but in a December poll (before the end of the ceasefire): Gaza population were asked:

 

How would you evaluate the current status of democracy and human rights in the Gaza Strip under Ismail Hanyieh government?

 

Almost half said it was bad or very bad, 21% said bad, 26% said very bad - 8% said very good, 24% said good.

 

In terms of overall performance of the Hamas govt, slightly more thought the governement had perfomed good versus performed bad

 

 

If new presidential elections are to take place today, and Mahmud Abbas was nominated by Fateh and Ismail Haniyeh was nominated by Hamas, whom would you vote for?

 

Mahmud Abbas - 46.4%

Ismail Haniyeh - 41.5

Don't know - 12%

 

 

And if the competition was between Marwan Barghouti representing Fateh and Ismail Haniyeh representing Hamas, whom would you vote for?

 

Marwan Barghouti - 53.7

Ismail Haniyeh - 39.2%

Don't know - 7%

 

- Clearly this indicates that support for Hamas remains largely unchanged regardless of who potentially represents Fatah, but if Barghouti was representing Fatah, around half of those who previously said 'Don't know' would vote for Fatah, and Fatah would win the election.

 

Who in your view is responsible for the failure of the Fateh-Hamas dialogue and reconciliation: Fateh and president Abbas or Hamas?

 

Fatah - 22.5%

Hamas - 28%

Both - 42%

 

 

36% think that arrest of Fatah members in the West Bank is the reason for Hamas’s boycott of the dialogue and reconciliation meeting in Cairo (last November)

26% think it's because of External pressure on Hamas

19% think it's because of internal divisions within hamas.

 

 

Slightly more think that Hamas rather than Fatah is to blame for the continued split of the PA between Gaza and the West Bank, but half say it's both of their fault

 

Interesting data about different peace plans too... all from here

[pipnasty]

genocide ? are there any figures on people starving to death in Gaza? has anybody died of starvation in Gaza?

 

Genocide is "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

 

United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

 

 

 

The situation for 1.5 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip is worse now than it has ever been since the start

of the Israeli military occupation in 1967. The current situation in Gaza is man-made, completely avoidable

and, with the necessary political will, can also be reversed.

 

Humanitarian Assistance

Movement in and out of Gaza is all but impossible and supplies of food, water, sewage treatment, basic health care have been drastically affected by the blockade of aid. Food prices are rising and wheat, flour, baby milk, and rose 34%, 30%, and 20.5% respectively during the period May-June 2007 alone.

Prior to the blockade (implemented after Hamas took over total adminstration over Gaza in June 2007), around 250 trucks carrying aid entered Gaza each day.

As of March 2008, that number was reduced to 45.

According to UN figures reported in the Guardian, that number dropped to just 5 in December.

Most recently, the Israeli government prevented a Libyan ship carrying 3000 tons of aid from entering Gaza.

 

Poverty and Dependency on Food Aid

Number of people living in absolute poverty in Gaza in 2008: 80%

Number of people living in absolute poverty in Gaza in 2006: 63%

In 2007, households were spending 62% of their income on food.

In 2004, households were spending 37% of their income on food.

As of March 2008, there were over 1.1 million people—three quarters of Gaza—who are dependent on food aid. In less than ten years, the numbers of families who depending on UNRWA food aid has increased ten-fold

 

Unemployment

In June 2005, there were 3,900 factories in Gaza employing 35,000 people.

In December 2007, there were just 195, employing only 1,700.

Unemployment is close to 40%.

40,000 agriculture works who depend on cash crops now have no income.

In September 2000, 24,000 Gazans crossed into Israel to seek cheap labor. Now that number is zero.

 

Schools, Electricity, Medical Supplies

In January 2008, UNICEF reported that schools in Gaza had been cancelling classes that required high energy consumption like IT, science lab, and extra-curricular classes.

Hospitals cannot generate electricity to keep lifesaving equipment working or to generate oxygen, while 40-50 million liters of sewage continues to pour into the sea daily.

Hospitals are currently experiencing power cuts lasting for 8-12 hours a day.

There is currently a 60-70 percent shortage reported in the diesel required for hospital power generators.

According to the World Health Organization, the proportion of patients given permits to exit Gaza for medical care dropped from 89.3% in January 2007 to 64.3% in December 2007.

Many of those who are given permits are blocked at the crossing itself. In October 2007 alone, the WHO confirmed that 20 patients died because they were denied access to refereal services. Five of these deaths were children.

 

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/resources/download...gaza_lowres.pdf

 

 

 

And all of this from before the recent war.

[pipnasty]

I wouldn't be surprised if support had increased due to Israel's actions, but in a December poll (before the end of the ceasefire)

 

 

Really interesting stuff that - I'll give it a good read later. Cheers.

 

But from your initial figures, I would certainly question this;

 

"Thing is, it's already been established, and I don't think anyone on here denies the fact that Hamas are scum who don't have the Palestinian people's best interests at heart."

 

It appears that the Palestinian people may disagree with this statement.

[Zoob]

Really interesting stuff that - I'll give it a good read later. Cheers.

 

But from your initial figures, I would certainly question this;

 

"Thing is, it's already been established, and I don't think anyone on here denies the fact that Hamas are scum who don't have the Palestinian people's best interests at heart."

 

It appears that the Palestinian people may disagree with this statement.

 

Actually, I should have added also that it's conceivable that support of Hamas could have fallen (because it was the palestinian people rather than Hamas who generally suffered as a result of the Israeli attack), and because of the murders that Hamas have been committing since the war began.

 

The reason I say I don't think Hamas have the people's best interests at heart, is firstly because of their use of human shields

- with Israel then obliging and killing any number of civillians in order to kill 1 or 2 Hamas fighters

 

And also because the majority of Palestinians are prepared to accept the existence of Israel if it meant peace and a real state for them. The majority of Palestinians want a 2 state solution rather than a 1 state solution (58% want 2 state solution, 27% want 1 state - detailed here

 

From the first survey data I posted, there was another question:

According to the Saudi plan, Israel will retreat from all territories occupied in 1967 including Gaza the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, and a Palestinian state will be established. The refugees problem will be resoved through negotiation in a just and agreed upon manner and in accordance with UN resolution 194 which allows return of refugees to Israel and compensation. In return, all Arab states will recognize Israel and its right to secure borders, will sign peace treaties with her and establish normal diplomatic relations. Do you agree or disagree to this plan?

 

Among those in Gaza, (all the data I posted in my last post was based on those in Gaza) 72% agreed with this plan, and 26% disagreed. Putting aside what is clearly an importnt debate about whether or not Israel would allow this to happen, Hamas still don't accept Israel's right to exist, and certainly don't appear to be doing anything to move towards the 2 state solution that Palestinians want (and I don't think that Hamas are holding their position because they don't think Israel will allow it to happen, I think it's because their ideology and beliefs are still that the state of Israel should not exist. If they came out to say anything to make me change my mind, I'd be delighted)

 

 

There is also the question:

 

If a peace agreement is reached, and a Palestinian state is established and recognized by Israel, would you support or oppose the efforts to reach full reconciliation between Israel and the Palestinian state?

 

 

69% would support it, and 31% would not.

 

- again there is nothing in Hamas ideology or public statements that suggests they support what the majoirity of those in Gaza support.

 

Edit: final question was simply 'which political party do you support?' - Fatah = 35%, Hamas = 26%, but interestingly, 'none' = 26%, suggesting there's really a void in terms of a party who are not corrupt, and have a full compliment of policies people will support.

 

 

Unfortunately, there is understandably a very pessimistic view when it comes to negotiations for peace, and understandably, most think negotiations will fail. Also quite an eye opener to see that nearly 60% support attacks against civillians in Israel and only around 40% oppose it (and this was before Israel killed so many civillians in Gaza).

Edited February 1, 2009 by Zoob

[Molby]

What is the punishment for spying/ treason in Israel?

 

 

don't be so bloody stupid

 

this is no different to the night of the long knives or any other nazi style cull where people settled old scores

 

happens all the time when mad dogs rule over other mad dogs

 

astonishing that they haven't been massacred, as well Israel could, and, imo. with total impunity

[smithdown]

don't be so bloody stupid

 

this is no different to the night of the long knives or any other nazi style cull where people settled old scores

 

happens all the time when mad dogs rule over other mad dogs

 

 

 

Two resistance organizations, the Jewish Military Union (Żydowski Związek Wojskowy, ŻZW) and the ŻOB took control of the Ghetto. They built dozens of fighting posts and executed individuals who collaborated with the Germans, including Jewish Police officers, members of German-sponsored Żagiew organization and Gestapo agents (like Judenrat member Dr [Alfred Nossig] on 22 February 1943).[15] The ŻOB established a prison to hold and execute traitors and collaborators.[16] Józef Szeryński, the former head of the Jewish Police, committed suicide.[17]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

[Hassony]

don't be so bloody stupid

 

this is no different to the night of the long knives or any other nazi style cull where people settled old scores

 

happens all the time when mad dogs rule over other mad dogs

 

astonishing that they haven't been massacred, as well Israel could, and, imo. with total impunity

 

It was a genuine question, and BTTB answered it

[Molby]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

 

that's different

 

entirely justified, as history has proven

 

whereas Palestinians will not be rounded up and killed by Israel just for minding their own business

and in fact, if Hamas f*** off, they could even begin to prosper