US Presidential race

[DanielS]

So how come other people can discern whether or not they're being fed total BS from the media?

 

She's a moron!

 

She's not been given the tools. How many people do you know who critically analyse the information they are given? A lot of people have grown up taking the newspapers and television news as gospel - why would the news media lie to them afterall?

She's probably a bit thicker than average, but then the American education system isn't geared toward much more than babysitting.

[fyds]

Strange times, my friends, strange times.

Sorry matty - in my rant I got confused - The Spectator. is what I meant.

[fyds]

She's not been given the tools. How many people do you know who critically analyse the information they are given? A lot of people have grown up taking the newspapers and television news as gospel - why would the news media lie to them afterall?

She's probably a bit thicker than average, but then the American education system isn't geared toward much more than babysitting.

C'mon Dan - she'd only have to watch CNN for five minutes, then Fox for five minutes and she'd be sure one of them was lying.

[DanielS]

'Ignorance' is often the result of a fixed viewpoint through which everything else is filtered - if it doesn't fit that viewpoint, no matter how obvious, logical or sensible - it's discarded as lies, propaganda 'liberal' or whatever other label may conveniently fit. This is the true meaning of 'the conviction of ignorance'.

 

It comes down to education. If you are the product of a system that does not promote the criticism of authority then you are on the fast track to accusations of ignorance. That rancher is probably a vapid racist, religious to the core and quite confident that if she doesn't have the answers then "the good lord does" - she's also probably the product of a traditional patriachal system that encourages women to play the subservient role. Her authority figures are even more extended than the average male in her sociological group.

She deserves pity, but her opinions, derision.

[fyds]

It comes down to education. If you are the product of a system that does not promote the criticism of authority then you are on the fast track to accusations of ignorance. That rancher is probably a vapid racist, religious to the core and quite confident that if she doesn't have the answers then "the good lord does" - she's also probably the product of a traditional patriachal system that encourages women to play the subservient role. Her authority figures are even more extended than the average male in her sociological group.

She deserves pity, but her opinions, derision.

What you're suggesting though would indicate someone as no more than a vessel - incapable of thinking for themselves. Admittedly religion can certainly do this to you and add yet another layer to the filter.

 

I still think a lot of people get a 'free' when it comes to not taken some of the raop for thier own fundamental intellectual laziness. Not everyone is capable of it granted, but far too few even try.

[DanielS]

What you're suggesting though would indicate someone as no more than a vessel - incapable of thinking for themselves. Admittedly religion can certainly do this to you and add yet another layer to the filter.

 

I still think a lot of people get a 'free' when it comes to not taken some of the raop for thier own fundamental intellectual laziness. Not everyone is capable of it granted, but far too few even try.

 

Dad tells 'em what to think until its time for the teacher to tell them. Then its hubbies turn. By the time they're past the stage of naturally driven, physiologically motivated intellectual curiosity its too late and they've had the learning button set to off. From then on challenging their preconceptions just makes them uncomfortable and stubborn. Its repeated in societies around the world and its a fricking crime.

 

That said though - most people settle for the easy route. Challenge takes effort and most people are lazy.

 

And yes, I'm on a downer regrading Homo Sapiens and modern society today.

[pipnasty]

yeah theres f***ing loads you weirdo such as the racak massacre.

 

why exactly do you think milosevic was indicted for war crimes?

 

 

Racak occured in 1999. An estimated 40 to 45 people were killed.

 

As for Milosevic, it was the only incident which featured in his War Crimes trial that occured before the NATO intervention in. In his trial, Milosevic was accused of a total of 391 murders.

[Bailo]

Racak occured in 1999. An estimated 40 to 45 people were killed.

 

As for Milosevic, it was the only incident which featured in his War Crimes trial that occured before the NATO intervention in. In his trial, Milosevic was accused of a total of 391 murders.

I'm assuming you don't mean that was too few to warrant NATO intervention?

 

I also don't see there necessarily being a correlation between Nato going in and the other 346-351 murders he was accused of. Is there any evidence to say that these wouldn't have been commited had it not been for NATO?

 

Clinton's autobiography (as one would expect) is very explicit that he saw it as totally necessary action.

[smithdown]

Dad tells 'em what to think until its time for the teacher to tell them. Then its hubbies turn. By the time they're past the stage of naturally driven, physiologically motivated intellectual curiosity its too late and they've had the learning button set to off. From then on challenging their preconceptions just makes them uncomfortable and stubborn. Its repeated in societies around the world and its a fricking crime.

 

That said though - most people settle for the easy route. Challenge takes effort and most people are lazy.

 

And yes, I'm on a downer regrading Homo Sapiens and modern society today.

 

I had one of my mates insist to me recently that black people can't swim. Their bones are too heavy. It's science. He got a right mood on when I suggested he should ask a black fella nearby at the bar if he could swim. That was me playing the race card and was out of order.

 

This was during the Olympics. When I texted the lad to turn on the box to see the US relay swimming team break the world record with a black fella in the team, my mate was unfortunately nowhere near a telly.

 

They don't play snooker or darts either, do they? That's because they don't have elbows.

[John am Rhein]

Clinton's autobiography (as one would expect) is very explicit that he saw it as totally necessary action.

 

and he was right

[pipnasty]

I'm assuming you don't mean that was too few to warrant NATO intervention?

 

 

Not at all - but I think it is important to use figures in order to put incidents into context. For example, in 1999 William Cohen the then Defence Secretary of the US stated that up to 100,000 Albanian men had been killed. This proved to be completely and utterly untrue but was used as part of the evidence to step up NATO's involvement in the conflict.

 

The whole Balkan crisis was appalling. NATO intervention was welcomed. Milosevic was right to be tried for War Crimes. Others should have joined him.

 

But that alone is not the full story by a long long way. There are some very serious accusations levelled at NATO during that campaign (a US Air Force Report revealed that only 58 miltary targets were hit during the 78 days of bombing) and wild exaggerations of our military might and expertise from the usual cheerleading suspects does very little other than to grossly distort an already complex picture.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Pipnasty

[Bailo]

Not at all - but I think it is important to use figures in order to put incidents into context. For example, in 1999 William Cohen the then Defence Secretary of the US stated that up to 100,000 Albanian men had been killed. This proved to be completely and utterly untrue but was used as part of the evidence to step up NATO's involvement in the conflict.

Was that just bad intelligence or deliberate manipulation of figures? I find it hard to condemn the people taking decisions like that when the best intelligence is telling them that hundreds of thousands are being slaughtered and we need to take action NOW.

[pipnasty]

Was that just bad intelligence or deliberate manipulation of figures? I find it hard to condemn the people taking decisions like that when the best intelligence is telling them that hundreds of thousands are being slaughtered and we need to take action NOW.

 

 

Sounds a bit like The Iraq Justification to me.

[Bailo]

Sounds a bit like The Iraq Justification to me.

Who me? Or William Cohen?

 

It does indeed have parallels with that, hence why I inquired as to the then-thought veracity of the intelligence. The Iraq Justification was notoriously "sexed up", with a lot of one-sourced intelligence used as gospel.

 

If the people you pay to gather intelligence come to you and say "Here it is, it's multiply-sourced, it's as good as we're going to get" and then it turns out to be false, what can you do?

 

I don't think the Iraq evidence could ever be claimed to be "gold standard".

Edited November 7, 2008 by DarkBailo

[pipnasty]

Fool me once, shame on.....shame on you. Fool me, you can't get fooled again.

[John am Rhein]

Sounds a bit like The Iraq Justification to me.

 

It's exactly like the Iraq Justification (or one of the Iraq Justifications) and, while I agreed with the Kosovo war, one of the unfortunate consequences of it was that it made something like the Iraq war easier to create bogus justifications for. Few if any people foresaw that at the time, however.

[Mike]

Racak occured in 1999. An estimated 40 to 45 people were killed.

 

and?

[smithdown]

Not at all - but I think it is important to use figures in order to put incidents into context. For example, in 1999 William Cohen the then Defence Secretary of the US stated that up to 100,000 Albanian men had been killed. This proved to be completely and utterly untrue but was used as part of the evidence to step up NATO's involvement in the conflict.

 

The primary evidence was that there was a military occupation by a state that had quite clearly committed genocide against its neighbours and had a stated intention to reject Kosovan independence by any means necessary.

 

It was there on the telly. It wasn't all about bogus intelligence reports.

[pipnasty]

The primary evidence was that there was a military occupation by a state that had quite clearly committed genocide against its neighbours

 

 

Are you referring to the Serbian genocide in Bosnia?

[Mad Scientist]

Are you referring to the Serbian genocide in Bosnia?

Could the serbian/bosnian/kosovan etc discussion possibly get its own thread?

[smithdown]

Are you referring to the Serbian genocide in Bosnia?

 

Precisely.

 

A campaign that had its roots in Serbia's actions against Kosovo in the late 80s, which they returned to again after annexing huge swathes of Bosnia, until NATO finally woke up.

[Des]

Could the serbian/bosnian/kosovan etc discussion possibly get its own thread?

 

I agree.

 

Let's back to the 08 election. There's still a good deal of comedy to be had from that subject.

[fyds]

I agree.

 

Let's back to the 08 election. There's still a good deal of comedy to be had from that subject.

Priceless - or very expensive at least!

[smithdown]

I agree.

 

Let's back to the 08 election. There's still a good deal of comedy to be had from that subject.

 

Okeydokey.

 

Fox is actually turning its guns on the reporters who used unattributable quotes to spread this malicious tale. It's disgusting how low these journalists go these days, and the sneaky cowardly swine who pass on these rumours to the press should be ashamed of themselves as well.

 

It's a disgrace.

 

Poor Sarah.

 

The fact that it was Fox who broke the story in the first place is of no relevance whatsoever and anyone who doesn't think so is a...pinhead?

[Des]

Priceless - or very expensive at least!

 

I think the stupid cow thought that a GOP credit card was a blank cheque for her to buy whatever she wanted.