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Racist kids cant understand woman in veil


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Some interesting responses to these threads where Islam has been discussed during my time on here. I only ever used to come on here for the footy after the KT debacle so it feels a bit weird to be posting so much in the General here.

 

To clarify my intention, I tend to get involved from a defensive point of view and hopefully suggest that the glib shorthand media and political 'debates' about Islam are generally a million miles from the truth. If it means one or two posters might be less inclined to see someone at a bus stop and think 'unevolved terorist loving idiot who wont contribute to society' with all the associated dangers of that kind of attitude then happy days.

 

Also, what has happened has been several posters getting in touch directly by email to ask the odd question, sometimes indicating that they are interested in reading into it further for their own understanding. In some ways that made me slightly uncomfortable to begin with - I am extremely wary, as I am with mates generally, of appearing to be proseletysing and trying to convert and my advice is always the same. Read The Qu'ran to find out about Islam and muslims, don't rely on us to explain complex questions cos I'm still only learning myself. What I will do is defend my own beliefs though and if something strikes a chord or raises interest to the extent that someone will pick up the book for themselves then so be it. Can't do any harm can it?

 

With the exception of issues to do with political figures who prosper from warfare I don't generally go on the offensive when posting. I can understand when issues such as the status of gay people within Islam cause distress but there really doesn't feel like anything I can do about that. However, I am tempted to give it a rest completely as some people appear to be becoming, whats the word, 'uncomfortable', although if I do so it will be in the knowledge that with the exception of three or four other muslim posters, the General forum will end up discussing issues to do with muslims with only non-muslims contributing.

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Some interesting responses to these threads where Islam has been discussed during my time on here. I only ever used to come on here for the footy after the KT debacle so it feels a bit weird to be posting so much in the General here.

 

To clarify my intention, I tend to get involved from a defensive point of view and hopefully suggest that the glib shorthand media and political 'debates' about Islam are generally a million miles from the truth. If it means one or two posters might be less inclined to see someone at a bus stop and think 'unevolved terorist loving idiot who wont contribute to society' with all the associated dangers of that kind of attitude then happy days.

 

Also, what has happened has been several posters getting in touch directly by email to ask the odd question, sometimes indicating that they are interested in reading into it further for their own understanding. In some ways that made me slightly uncomfortable to begin with - I am extremely wary, as I am with mates generally, of appearing to be proseletysing and trying to convert and my advice is always the same. Read The Qu'ran to find out about Islam and muslims, don't rely on us to explain complex questions cos I'm still only learning myself. What I will do is defend my own beliefs though and if something strikes a chord or raises interest to the extent that someone will pick up the book for themselves then so be it. Can't do any harm can it?

 

With the exception of issues to do with political figures who prosper from warfare I don't generally go on the offensive when posting. I can understand when issues such as the status of gay people within Islam cause distress but there really doesn't feel like anything I can do about that. However, I am tempted to give it a rest completely as some people appear to be becoming, whats the word, 'uncomfortable', although if I do so it will be in the knowledge that with the exception of three or four other muslim posters, the General forum will end up discussing issues to do with muslims with only non-muslims contributing.

 

I don´t think Muslims are terrorists. They´re just as likely to be decent people as anyone else, atheists included. They´re also just as capable of doing bad things. We´re all people with the same strengths and flaws no matter what we believe.

 

it's only a matter of time until nike release a niqab.

 

The Nike-ab.

 

Just hide it.

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I don´t think Muslims are terrorists. They´re just as likely to be decent people as anyone else, atheists included. They´re also just as capable of doing bad things. We´re all people with the same strengths and flaws no matter what we believe.

 

 

 

We'd agree on that then. Problem is that the perception of muslims is not quite so egalitarian in the western media/political arenas.

 

Smithdown, what´s your take on Christianity? Do you believe that your God is the same as their God?

 

Do you think you´re right and they´re wrong?

 

 

Their book is distorted, written by man. Jesus (Isa - pbuh) was a Prophet equal to Muhammed (pbuh) although the latter was the last of this long line of Prophets and he was given the final untamperable message.

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With the exception of issues to do with political figures who prosper from warfare I don't generally go on the offensive when posting. I can understand when issues such as the status of gay people within Islam cause distress but there really doesn't feel like anything I can do about that. However, I am tempted to give it a rest completely as some people appear to be becoming, whats the word, 'uncomfortable', although if I do so it will be in the knowledge that with the exception of three or four other muslim posters, the General forum will end up discussing issues to do with muslims with only non-muslims contributing.

Fair enough. I flipped on Saturday but I wouldn't want to be missing the Muslim posts.

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Was discussed in another thread. A number of relatively new breakthrough scientific theories were in The Qu'ran 1400 years ago, evolution included.

 

One of the first evolutionary theories was proposed by Thales of Miletus (640?546 BC) in the province of Ionia on the coast near Greece. He was also evidently the first person to advance the idea that life first originated in water. Birdsell notes that Thales? view of biological evolution ?was not too far from modern truth?. One of Thales? students, Anaximander (611?547 BC), developed these ideas further, concluding that humans evolved from fish or fishlike forms. These fish-men eventually cast off their scaly skin and moved to dry land where they have been ever since.

 

The Greek philosopher Empedocles (493?435 BC), often called the father of evolutionary naturalism, argued that chance alone ?was responsible for the entire process? of the evolution of simple matter into modern humankind. Empedocles concluded that spontaneous generation fully explained the origin of life, and he also taught that all living organism types gradually evolved by the process of trial-and-error recombinations of animal parts. He also believed that natural selection was the primary mechanism of evolution, the fittest being more likely to survive to pass their traits on to their offspring.

 

In short, Empedocles? pre-Darwin ?survival?of-the-fittest? theory taught that life evolved by pruning the less-fit life forms?i.e. the merciless destruction of the weaker animals and plants. Unfortunately, many early Greek manuscripts have been lost, but the texts that survive provide enough details to determine with some accuracy what the ancient Greeks believed. This evidence motivated Osborn to conclude that ?Darwin owes more even to the Greeks than we have ever recognized.?

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Their book is distorted, written by man. Jesus (Isa - pbuh) was a Prophet equal to Muhammed (pbuh) although the latter was the last of this long line of Prophets and he was given the final untamperable message.

Do you believe that Abraham = Ibrahim though, and therefore it's the same God?

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If Straw can enunciate the feelings of some ordinary people, as opinion polls have suggested he has done correctly, then that's far better than someone from outside the mainstream doing it.

 

The BNP enunciate the feelings of quite a few "ordinary people" as well. So the fact that a politician in power does the same is something to be welcomed? Righto. :wacko:

 

Of course, the veil is a single, small part of the wider issue, and what needs to happen now is what IS happening, that muslims from all sides of these issues are getting a lot of publicity for their views. Let's face it, we've never had such exposure from across the Islamic spectrum, whether that be criticising Straw, or supporting him, as quite a few have done.

 

Maybe it would be better if that was happening. However, it does appear that quite the opposite is happening, and the legitimacy of certain Muslims as valid members of society is being questioned, despite the fact that Muslims actively do participate and take an active role in society and have done for a long, long time now.

 

The only far right person I've seen talking about it is the ridiculous Nigel Farage of UKIP, who is such a swivel eyed lunatic that nobody could take him seriously.

 

The problem is that a fair few people do take his sort seriously.

 

The problem of far right politics becoming more successful comes mainly when people feel ignored and shut out of politics locally or nationnally, and turn to those who operate at street level, preying on their insecurities. And I'm definitely prepared to say that this government has failed in some places to counter that.

 

I'd say this government has failed to engage the electorate and make them feel represented by those they have elected and a part of the political process far more than any at least in my lifetime and possibly since we've had universal suffrage. Yeah, even more than the Tories.

 

Nobody is trying to "isolate a tiny minority" anyway. What good would it do Straw in Blackburn FFS?

 

Straw is trying to out-Reid Reid to up his profile ahead of the deputy leader fight. The effect on his constituents is not something he appears to give a flying one about. And Muslims are still a minority in Blackburn anyway, Matty.

 

Certainly what needs to happen now is a wider debate about how we construct more cohesive communities, where there are tensions (and which have existed for a long time before Straw's intervention).

 

I honestly fail to see anything in what either Straw or Blair have said on this issue which contributes to any of that. They seem more intent in making those tensions even more keenly felt.

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The BNP enunciate the feelings of quite a few "ordinary people" as well. So the fact that a politician in power does the same is something to be welcomed? Righto. :wacko:

 

I'd say this government has failed to engage the electorate and make them feel represented by those they have elected and a part of the political process far more than any at least in my lifetime and possibly since we've had universal suffrage. Yeah, even more than the Tories.

 

Straw is trying to out-Reid Reid to up his profile ahead of the deputy leader fight. The effect on his constituents is not something he appears to give a flying one about. And Muslims are still a minority in Blackburn anyway, Matty.

 

I honestly fail to see anything in what either Straw or Blair have said on this issue which contributes to any of that. They seem more intent in making those tensions even more keenly felt.

 

Give me strength. on your first point, so every politician who can say what ordinary people are feeling does so in the same manner as the BNP? Inane.

 

I don't agree on the marginalisation of people as you suggest. I think people feel distant from politics for a large number of reasons, and not wholly to do with this particular government. It's a bigger issue, although I accept that New Labour has governed with too large a degree of single mindedness.

 

Straw's main opponent for the deputy leadership would not be Reid, as Reid cannot get anywhere near a big enough vote in either the constituency section or the Trade Union section of the electoral college, and I wouldn't think he would get near 20% in the CLP section either. If he's battling Reid, he's not got his eye on the real opponents.

 

All politicians give a flying one about their constituency Des. And Muslims make up a disproportionately large amount of the Labour vote in many constituencies.

 

It is not in the interests of the government to promote divisions with Muslims. And given, as I keep saying, and you keep ignoring, many muslims are speaking up to say that Straw has made a good point which is worth debating.

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straw didn't just say he felt uncomfortable (like much of joe public). nor did he seek to promote understanding by opening a debate. he quite clearly implied that muslim women ought to assimilate themselves into british society by casting off their veils (thereby forsaking their religious beliefs and practices) so whitey might feel more comfortable.

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Ibrahim is regarded as the first Muslim

 

Apparently Abraham had many sons.

Many sons had the afore mentioned Muslim / Jew / Christian called Ibrahim / Abraham.

Supposedly I'm one of them

and so are you.

So lets all praise a non-specific deity.

 

Looks like some of that Sunday school crap did stick.;)

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Their book is distorted, written by man. Jesus (Isa - pbuh) was a Prophet equal to Muhammed (pbuh) although the latter was the last of this long line of Prophets and he was given the final untamperable message.

 

Christians believe that the Bible is the Word of God, revealed to various prophets. You think that it is distorted because that word was interpreted and written down by man. You believe that the Koran is the Word of God, revealed to a human prophet and written down by a group of men. Yet you do not see this work as being distorted.

 

Do you not see any contradictions between those two positions?

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Christians believe that the Bible is the Word of God, revealed to various prophets. You think that it is distorted because that word was interpreted and written down by man. You believe that the Koran is the Word of God, revealed to a human prophet and written down by a group of men. Yet you do not see this work as being distorted.

 

Do you not see any contradictions between those two positions?

don't talk silly gilps. it's ineffable innit?

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Christians believe that the Bible is the Word of God, revealed to various prophets. You think that it is distorted because that word was interpreted and written down by man. You believe that the Koran is the Word of God, revealed to a human prophet and written down by a group of men. Yet you do not see this work as being distorted.

 

Do you not see any contradictions between those two positions?

but that book really really really is the word of god....honest guv, no word of a lie.

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Christians believe that the Bible is the Word of God, revealed to various prophets. You think that it is distorted because that word was interpreted and written down by man. You believe that the Koran is the Word of God, revealed to a human prophet and written down by a group of men. Yet you do not see this work as being distorted.

 

Do you not see any contradictions between those two positions?

 

 

As has been said, the direct contradictions within the bible, the contrary nature of various translations, the versions written to order etc are not replicated within The Qu'ran. One is consistent and actually describes the seal placed upon the words therein and the reasons for it, the other is a long series of stories accumulated over time.

 

Very different books if you ever try to read them.

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