What is it going to take to get some of you angry

[David Hodgson]

Things are not right behind the scenes at our club. A blind man can see it. We have respected 'insiders' telling us the same. Yet so many of you seem to want to put you hands over your ears and cover your eyes.

 

I admire the loyalty, I genuinely do. I never wanted LFC to become one of those hysterical situations where bored fans routinely chant 'sack the board'. I've been around a good while, and I fully understand what a valuable commodity stability has been at LFC. We traditionally trust our leaders, whilst others lose patience in 5 minutes.

 

But something big isn't right here. Let's set aside our gleaming cups for a second, and draw a graph of the club's league position since 1990. It shows decline, in position terms, and points terms. It shows a gap widening between LFC and the top, and there are no signs of a reversal of that situation. In fact, the decline is so entrenched, most of us fans would take 4th place now.

 

I've always been a realist, and accepted that 'nothing lasts for ever' and that we couldn't really expect a full return to the glory days. Then we got Rafa. Yes, Parry and Moores got Rafa. Well done to them, though anyone analysing the European managerial scene for all of 5 minutes could have deduced that he should be a priority candidate. Persuading any manager to come to Liverpool, should then not be the hardest job in the world. Especially when Benitez was not happy at his club, and not being tracked by any other club of our stature.

 

The current leaders at Anfield have had the wit to realise that the club needs bigger transfer funds to compete at the top of the league. They know that the ability to sign players with proven pedigrees is inherently expensive, but that's what is required, by and large, for sustained success. Big clubs need to be signing 'big names', in order to remain big clubs. It's not a PR thing, its common sense. The biggest turnaround in LFC fortunes I remember was during the summer of '87, when Kenny transformed a fading tired looking team into one of the most vibrant I've ever seen. He did it by signing, big/pedigree names, and by spending the money required (Barnes, Beardsley, Aldridge, Houghton). that doesn't mean a canny manager doesn't also scout for bargains and seek to unearth gems, but few have sustained success just by 'bargain hunting'.

 

I think Rick Parry and co. understand what has to be done, but are just not proving competent enough at doing it. We have no new ground on the horizon, no signs whatsoever of new investment, and, it seems, a dwindling transfer kitty for the manager, despite the kind of success that should be generating more funds than ever.

 

Of course, I don't know the conditions these men work in, and I've always adhered to the maxim about 'not judging a man 'til you've walked in his shoes', but Mr Parry and David Moores insist on working in such secrecy that we are left with little choice but to judge them by results.

 

The 'results' that have left myself, and many others, exasperated and pointing fingers are, to re-iterate :

 

- failure to get the stadium project underway

- failure to raise new investment

- failure to, apparently, provide the manager with much more than a net transfer 'war chest' of 5m in the summer after wining the European Cup

- Failure to secure many of the cheaper targets the manager wanted, in the positions he wanted.

- failure to secure Michael Owen, despite being in pole position to do so.

- the near loss of Steven Gerrard through a basic lack of communication.

 

Yes, there will be issues you can take with one or two on this list, but, fair or not, it's a list that seems to gain in length, and plausibility with each passing month.

 

It's time for answers, not 'dignified' silences from Parry and Moores. I'd like to see them face a fans forum, and try and justify their positions. I don't see why we have to work on the assumption that they are 'innocent' until proven otherwise. Many of us feel the reverse, and have the right to feel we need big re-assurances.

[Will]

Let's set aside our gleaming cups for a second, and draw a graph of the club's league position since 1990. It shows decline, in position terms, and points terms. It shows a gap widening between LFC and the top, and there are no signs of a reversal of that situation

973632[/snapback]

 

a - why the feck should we leave aside gleaming cups?

b - no signs of reversal? Are you insane?

[Will]

We are going to finish closer thanm we did last season

 

To me that is a "sign of reversal" (even if we take your point about a downward trend seriously)

[growler]

I accept your comments, but think for the most part, its a bit drama queen.

 

Most clubs have an element of turmoil doing on anyway, some more than others. We, however, are one of the more stable. we have consistantly been winning trophies. We haven't pawned ourselves to the outside world. We haven't over marketed, or made decisions that made financial, but not football sense. Yes we have made mistakes, but everyone does.

 

Where do you work? do you think it is perfect? that there is nothing wrong? What you are doing is what Michael Owen did when he left. 'Look what they have, its nice and shiny and big and pretty and I want it!!!' look what happened to him.

 

What liverpool do have is a world wide reputation, we are known for giving our managers time to mould and build the team. Regardless of what anyone says, every liverpool manager has had funds to buy players.

 

the new TV deal kicks is this season. that means less money. We also are not getting the money we should this season because of the FA and the bluescum across the park.

 

I'm not going to go through the list you made, because mistakes have been made. However, signing owen is not a mistake, that was a good decision. the mistake was not selling him before. however, was that Parry's mistake, or Houlliers? SHOULD that be the boards decision or players?

 

what about Arsenal? Edu and wiltord left for free. Does that mean the board should be sacked? they haven't won in europe for ages. should they be sacked?

 

Look around, and you will realise, that at liverpool, we actually have it really good. We have the best manager in Europe, we have stable (if not spectacular) finances and a great team. And we currently rule europe.

 

It could be worse.

 

We could be the comedy club, leeds, in 270million debt, owned by the russian mafia, or a team of players with no passion for the club, or change managers 3 times in a season.

 

but we are not. we are liverpool fc, run by a competant steady excutive board, who trust the manager, and frankly, look at the trophy cabinet. we have delivered. the title is the ONLY trophy that we have not won. Look at the other clubs. what have they NOT won yet?

 

Really, changing the board is a desperate measure, and we do not need desperate measures yet.

[Koogan]

Well the number of threads you start is beginning to annoy me...

[David Hodgson]

We are going to finish closer thanm we did last season

 

To me that is a "sign of reversal" (even if we take your point about a downward trend seriously)

973639[/snapback]

 

Will, what the f*ck is 37 points off top and 5th place if it isn't a downward trend. Yes, I too think we can't surely do as badly again, but not significantly.

 

Let's not nit-pick, about the precise curve of this 'graph', are you seriously happy with the state of the club at the moment ?

 

Posts merged:

Well the number of threads you start is beginning to annoy me...

973643[/snapback]

 

Yep, this will be about my fourth in the past 2 weeks. Must really cut back.

 

Thanks for the feedback though.

[Guest Portly]

If the transfer window closes without Benitez managing to sign his right winger and his central defender I will be a bit disappointed, but I am a long way from being angry.

 

We have the European Cup and started the new season with 4 points out of two games plus the Super Cup. I'm a long way from my anger threshold.

 

As far as the new stadium is concerned, there is not much wrong with our existing stadium. It is all reasonably new except for the Main Stand which is not showing any signs of falling down yet awhile. The grant-awarding bodies will not shell out any cash unless we have a shared stadium, which most people on this forum do not want to see.

 

I am wary of the new investment concept, because any new investment will be closer to the Glazier situation than the Abramovitch situation. Any new investor will want to make the investment work for them, and we will be likely to see increases in ticket prices for one thing.

 

The failure to sign a few squad players is disappointing but I am not going to get angry that we haven't got Solano or Mexes, I don't think they would have made a huge difference.

 

Finally the management were hardly to blame for the failure to sign Owen in the circumstance that Newcastle were prepared to pay £17 million for him. I would indeed have been angry if we had handed Real Madrid a £9 million profit on our dealings with little Michael. I don't know for a fact that his return would have been a big success. In his last season with us he wasn't very good to be honest.

 

What does make me ever so slightly shirty is the non-performance of the Academy. Huge sums have been invested in that, but we have had very little return in terms of young players coming through from a city that is a hotbed of football talent. Benitez has been driven to search abroad for young talent. I think Heighway should be relieved of his duties and replaced with somebody with a better track record for bringing on young players ...... like Dario Gradi at Crewe, for example. It would be worth splashing out some money for that!

[Cunny]

it's forum lore - don't question anything, retain blind loyalty and you are an uber fan.

 

your point about the league position and points totals are spot on

[RedNik]

What is really dissappointing to me is that we haven't really improved much on our squad since last year. We've not prioritized positions and have sold players without viable back ups.

[David Hodgson]

I'd have been nearly as angry as you seem to be if we had paid out £17million on a player plus his alleged wage of around a £100,000 a week who 12 months ago couldn't wait to get out of the club after stringing the club and the fans (thats us btw) along for 12 months that there was no problem about signing a new contract.

 

If you are looking for improvement, it doesn't come much bigger than European Champions. And lets not forget that was achieved without Michael Owen.

 

It will be interesting to see how all this hysteria is backed up when he goes on one of his 10 - 12 match goalless runs.

973655[/snapback]

 

Most indications are that we could have got Owen for 11/12m and well less than 80k a week. For a proven 20+goals a season man, I think that's good value.

 

The European Cup represents an amazing achievement, just as our finishing 5th on the points we did represents a real failure. I had hope that armed with the draw of being European Champions, the money that run earned, and the getting back into the Cl, that our board would have managed to back our manager to the tune of the near 30m net that Newcastle have managed, rather than the 5m they managed to date.

 

We really needed to capitalise on the wave of confidence at the club this summer. People can think I'm being hysterical here, and just unduly pessimistic, but I really wonder how our key players are feeling today. Are they still buoyed with the confidence of Istanbul, or are they like me, sat there scratching their heads at the very limited strengthening the club have undertaken this summer, and feeling strangely deflated.

[Cunny]

I'd have been nearly as angry as you seem to be if we had paid out £17million on a player plus his alleged wage of around a £100,000 a week who 12 months ago couldn't wait to get out of the club after stringing the club and the fans (thats us btw) along for 12 months that there was no problem about signing a new contract.

 

If you are looking for improvement, it doesn't come much bigger than European Champions. And lets not forget that was achieved without Michael Owen.

 

It will be interesting to see how all this hysteria is backed up when he goes on one of his 10 - 12 match goalless runs.

973655[/snapback]

 

it's not just about Owen though, the Owen debacle is just another example of board incompetence

 

it's up toParry and Moores to give Rafa the necessary resources and tools to mount an improved league challenge in the short and long term. They are quite clearly failing to do this :

 

stadium - no progress

investment - no progress

our priority signings - centreback and right midfielder - we now have 16 hours to scape the barrel bottom to get someone (anyone in).

 

The cl win should have seen us kick on, a unique opportunity to attract better players, business partners etc...

[mooks]

If the transfer window closes without Benitez managing to sign his right winger and his central defender I will be a bit disappointed, but I am a long way from being angry. 

 

We have the European Cup and started the new season with 4 points out of two games plus the Super Cup.  I'm a long way from my anger threshold. 

 

As far as the new stadium is concerned, there is not much wrong with our existing stadium.  It is all reasonably new except for the Main Stand which is not showing any signs of falling down yet awhile.  The grant-awarding bodies will not shell out any cash unless we have a shared stadium, which most people on this forum do not want to see. 

 

I am wary of the new investment concept, because any new investment will be closer to the Glazier situation than the Abramovitch situation.  Any new investor will want to make the investment work for them, and we will be likely to see increases in ticket prices for one thing. 

 

The failure to sign a few squad players is disappointing but I am not going to get angry that we haven't got Solano or Mexes, I don't think they would have made a huge difference. 

 

Finally the management were hardly to blame for the failure to sign Owen in the circumstance that Newcastle were prepared to pay £17 million for him.  I would indeed have been angry if we had handed Real Madrid a £9 million profit on our dealings with little Michael.  I don't know for a fact that his return would have been a big success.  In his last season with us he wasn't very good to be honest. 

 

What does make me ever so slightly shirty is the non-performance of the Academy.  Huge sums have been invested in that, but we have had very little return in terms of young players coming through from a city that is a hotbed of football talent.  Benitez has been driven to search abroad for young talent.  I think Heighway should be relieved of his duties and replaced with somebody with a better track record for bringing on young players ...... like Dario Gradi at Crewe, for example.  It would be worth splashing out some money for that!

973651[/snapback]

Good Lord, that's a good post!

 

** Faith in the forum restored **

[mooks]

Are they still buoyed with the confidence of Istanbul, or are they like me, sat there scratching their heads at the very limited strengthening the club have undertaken this summer, and feeling strangely deflated.

973669[/snapback]

How do you know it's limited?

 

We've played two games.

 

NB: Crouch hasn't even started yet

[Owen1978]

I dont see why some people dont see the signing of crouch in a positive light, if he turns out to be what rafa expects then he will be a better player in rafa's system then owen would have ever been. Its only Michael Owen, FFS there are much better players than him out there, some people make it sound like that we would have won the league, the fa cup & the CL with him.

[Guest A@A]

Because the cups are great but they cloud the issue. Our goal, as LFC, is always to be the number one team in this country. It's our 'bread and butter' (remind me who said that).

 

How close have we come to being 'the number one team in the country' Will ? How close are we just right now ? Do you think we're going to finish better than 4th this year ?

973636[/snapback]

 

"Cups cloud the issue"

 

[Knox_Harrington]

- failure to get the stadium project underway

- failure to raise new investment

 

- Failure to secure many of the cheaper targets the manager wanted, in the positions he wanted.

973632[/snapback]

All fair comment. Questions do have to be asked answered on the first two. But not on internet hearsay, especially when said hearsay, as discussed last night, has been wrong 99 times out of 100 (and I include myself in this) this summer.

 

The third one is as much to do with the manager as anybody else. The days of "he identifies the targets, we go and get them" are long gone.

 

If we are short of cash (and it remains an "if" comparatively speaking - Arsenal have made a profit on this summer's transfer dealings) then a significant part of the reason why is the money spent by Houllier and sanctioned by the board when targets were got at almost any cost. Yes, everyone was doing it not just Houllier, but then again, everyone was sanctioning it, not just Parry/Moores. The market has changed, the manager has changed and we have rightly pulled in from that position. A position which would have meant we signed Owen.

[ozziecazzie]

What makes me angry?.........

 

Man U

Chelsea, and their obscene money

People who are quick to criticise, but slow to praise.

Those who believe that 4th place in the league is more important than the Euro Cup

Supporters and players of clubs that have won every trophy available with the exception of the league, measuring our Club's success on our position in the league... and dismiss out trophies as clouding the issue

Those who are brilliant in hindsight, who don't apply such skills to their ownself when they look in teh mirror each morning.

Those who believe that this imperfect world should be perfect.

 

...... and so on...

[Mike]

thing is about owen, im convinced we were never going to spend 17 million, but something a lot less - which would have been accepted, but we couldn't even raise that - owen has said this morning that Liverpool couldn't get it together in time. that's a massive f*** up when you ADD it to selling him for only 8 million.

 

madrid have made parry look like a fool. they've made a massive profit on owen in one year.

[Knox_Harrington]

thing is about owen, im convinced we were never going to spend 17 million, but something a lot less - which would have been accepted, but we couldn't even raise that - owen has said this morning that Liverpool couldn't get it together in time.  that's a massive f*** up when you ADD it to selling him for only 8 million.

 

madrid have made parry look like a fool.  they've made a massive profit on owen in one year.

973750[/snapback]

Not a lot less that 17m. That's why Newcastle went so high. Had they offered 14 then perhaps Madrid would have taken 12 from us. But we weren't getting him with a 5m shortfall. No amount of inside information will make me believe that Real Madrid would turn their noses up at 5m. Madrid are currently trying to sign Sergio Ramos for 18m.

 

Had Owen refused point blank to go to Newcastle then we could have signed him. But he didn't.

[DanielS]

thing is about owen, im convinced we were never going to spend 17 million, but something a lot less - which would have been accepted, but we couldn't even raise that - owen has said this morning that Liverpool couldn't get it together in time.  that's a massive f*** up when you ADD it to selling him for only 8 million.

 

madrid have made parry look like a fool.  they've made a massive profit on owen in one year.

973750[/snapback]

 

A bit easier to make a lot of money on a player when he isn't 6 months away from going for free.

[Mike]

A bit easier to make a lot of money on a player when he isn't 6 months away from going for free.

973757[/snapback]

 

exactly.

[Ed the Wool]

Why don't people blame the council and the NWSA for the stadium farce, they have delayed it far more than the board did.

 

Blindness is catching in regards to people on both sides of the argument. People have someone to blame. Blame Owen, he f***ed off last summer without giving the new man a chance. What happened was he won f*** all and we won the biggest prize in europe.

 

Hard life, and yes we need to improve big time but it could be worse, we could be run by the likes of Kenyon, Kenwright or Shepperd.

973675[/snapback]

 

Spot on.

 

Kenyon, Kenwright, Shepherd, Dein, Al Fayed, Ridsdale, Gartside, Abromovitch and of course Edwards and now Glazer.

 

You name ONE premiership club with the widely held respect and decency of ours.

 

Micheal could have stayed last year. He could have dropped his wage demands and come back and fought for his place instead of being a prima donna. But he didn't. Only one person to blame here, and that is the man who made the decision. All this 'sack the board' s**** is the biggest disgrace I've ever heard. I hate to quote Ferguson, but f*** off and support Chelsea if a high spending classless team is what you want.

[Molby]

out of all this, the thing that leaps out at me is the failure of Moores and Parry to indulge us in a bit of PR

 

 

if they feel they can defend their position why don't they publish some reports and post them somewhere so that we can see what's going on?

 

so we can see exact details of investment deals and transfar sagas tha have gone nowhere

 

don't tell me, it's because they shouldn't have to, what with them being Chairman and Chief Exec of LFC, why should they have to pander to the rank and file supporters? If anyone thinks that then they should refrain from piping up, EVER, about any commercial issue.

 

I remember from history lessons, FDR president of the USA in the great depression of the 30s; he also had a tough job on his hands so he broadcast 'fireside chats' on the radio to tell the nation what he was doing to alleviate matters and bolster morale.

[Mike]

at least what we now is fact, is that we wanted owen but f***ed it up, we wanted figo but didn't get him and we wanted milito but didn't get him.

[DanielS]

out of all this, the thing that leaps out at me is the failure of Moores and Parry to indulge us in a bit of PR

if they feel they can defend their position why don't they publish some reports and post them somewhere so that we can see what's going on?

 

so we can see exact details of investment deals and transfar sagas tha have gone nowhere

 

don't tell me, it's because they shouldn't have to, what with them being Chairman and Chief Exec of LFC, why should they have to pander to the rank and file supporters? If anyone thinks that then they should refrain from piping up, EVER, about any commercial issue.

 

I remember from history lessons, FDR president of the USA in the great depression of the 30s; he also had a tough job on his hands so he broadcast 'fireside chats' on the radio to tell the nation what he was doing to alleviate matters and bolster morale.

973763[/snapback]

 

Perhaps the people who think they deserve the information they are craving aren't loud enough to be noticed yet. If Parry, Moores and Rafa think everything is going smoothly then why would they contemplate a "fireside chat"?