WTF is going on in the world

[Redray]

Talk about what? We either all bow down to their way of thinking or there's nothing to talk about.

 

These aren't reasonable people. They're not people with a misguided sense of injustice or a misguided sense of how to get what they want - which you could level at most other terrorist organizations. They're f***ing extreme maniacs.

 

The IRA would shoot people & blow s*** up - and usually they'd be military or police; towards the end they'd even give advance warnings because they realized that slaughtering people who have nothing to do with their aims wasn't a great tactic.

 

ISIS burn people alive, saw their heads off etc. The only land they want is all of it - every square inch of the planet

Yes the IRA were nice terrorists.

 

Nelson Mandela was even nicer.

 

These are bad terrorists, very bad. Let's make sure we keep them there so it reminds us of how civilised we are.

No simile at all. The only similarity is that both used violence. 

Well there you go.

 

Quite a lot in common then.

[Nerik]

If you simplify things yes. 

 

IRA and MK had the stated aim of achieving independent statehood for territories. They used violence to try and achieve that. There was never any statement that they would look to establish a violent, dictatorial, genocidal theocratical state. 
ISIS on the other hand want to do all that. There is no equivalence.......at all. 

[Redray]

If you simplify things yes. 

 

IRA and MK had the stated aim of achieving independent statehood for territories. They used violence to try and achieve that. There was never any statement that they would look to establish a violent, dictatorial, genocidal theocratical state. 

ISIS on the other hand want to do all that. There is no equivalence.......at all. 

We really need some post-revisionism of  the IRA really. 

 

You are actually saying what they did was ok because they had a legitimate aim.  Others on here seems to differentiate between bombing pubs and cutting off heads.  Terrorism is terrorism.  Did you support the peace process at the time?

 

No one is saying Isis have the same aims as the IRA and the question for us now is at what point do you change tack and start thinking about trying something different.

 

You cannot say with any certainty what ISIS want.  You have assumed it as fact.  Do you honestly think this rag tag bunch of 30,000 or so losers really want to take over the world?  They are being squeezed in warfare and I think Nice is a game changer.  They are saying to possible sympathisers do not worry if you cannot get an gun or a bomb, just find a vehicle and a crowd of people and its game on. They are getting more and more desperate and we will see more and more innocent people die as a result.  If they really only want us to stop bombing certain countries and as a result of some discussions even one life is saved here or elsewhere in Europe then would it not been worth it?  I appreciate the lives of persons in the countries being bombed are not relevant at all so I will ignore those.

 

To be honest I find the notion that we should not, at the very least, start some kind of dialogue with them highly irresponsible and blasé.

[Nerik]

No I am not saying that what they did was OK and no one here has said that as far as I can see. What I stated is that the motives and aims of the IRA and others were very different to those of ISIS. 

 

The IRA's stated aim was to achieve an Irish republic. They used violence to try and achieve their aim. ISIS use violence to impose violent, theocratic rule over millions. They have repeatedly stated that people must convert, pay a tax or die when under their rule. Non-Sunni Muslims, Christians, Jews, gays are put to death for being different. Are they throwing gays off the top of buildings in order to get Obama to stop bombing Syria? Are they stoning women to death in order for international recognition? No and no again.  Why can't we state with certainty what ISIS want? They have repeatedly stated it. Look at what the Taliban did in Afghanistan and step it up to a more extreme level. That is what they want. Is there some hidden message we are not seeing when they are lopping off the heads of people in Libya, Iraq or Syria?  

No,not all 30,000 people in ISIS want to take over the world. Same as not all Nazi soldiers had the same dream that Hitler and the top echelons of the party did. 

 

You again assume that people consider the lives of people in the countries being bombed as not relevant. Using your logic, not bombing ISIS and letting them go ahead and slaughter Yazidis, Shiites etc. means that those lives are not relevant to you. 

You can either come up with example of what sort of dialogue one can have with ISIS or keep on making assumptions out of people's statements. 

[Redray]

I making no assumptions about you legitimsation of the IRA's actions. Do you really want me to list their atrocities? The car bombings, Hyde Park, Warrington, trick or treat? At what point during that time did any of that make any sense or have a purpose to it. You did not answer whether you supported the peace process at the time. Maybe you are too young to remember.

 

It just won't wash to differentiate in terms of what remedial action we can think about now. I have no idea how anyone would start the dialogue. I had no idea how it would with the IRA, but it happened.

 

It's about a change of thought process. Clearly we are a long way from that as can be seen by your response above.

[Nerik]

Of course I supported the peace process and remember it well. I am not saying that any of the IRA's actions were justified (once again to make sure, before you try and put words in people's mouths). 

 

Don't you think that part of the process that led to people talking to the IRA was that the ultimate aim expressed by the IRA was something that both people on the fence could understand, whilst maybe not agreeing with? The IRA was also just one part of a movement of people calling for that same aim. 

 

Again I ask you, what dialogue do you think can be had with ISIS? No answers yet. You claim that their aims are not clear, when for many they are very clear and scary. The violence is not just a tool to achieve the aim but also the ultimate aim in terms of how they want to go about things. There is no proof to the contrary. 

Change your thought process all you like and I stated that for all I care people can try and talk to ISIS (and may have well tried for all we know). No plausible outcomes that could remotely satisfy both parties that  you can think of I can see as otherwise you'd mention one. ISIS want a state based on the negation of all human rights, UN conventions, modern laws, rights etc. Good luck discussing with them with the new thought process you are calling for. 

[Swan Red]

Trick or treat was the UDA and it's perfectly reasonable to identify the IRA's purpose while disagreeing with their goal and or their methods. Irish republicanism has as its goal the unification of Ireland the IRA as part of that struggle has stood down and peace largely established by of a willingness to engage on both sides. But we knew their goals as they told us just as we know that ISIS goal is the establishement of a caliphate but while in Ireland there were political actors to negotiate with its not something clear that there is any scope to negotiate with ISIS given the atrocities they are carrying out against the population under their authority. There is no equivalence between ISIS and these other organisations.

[Redray]

How will you know what the answers are if you refuse to ask the question?

 

What possible logic can there be in refusing to ask it?

 

Maybe nothing will come of it but to say we are not going to engage because of some moral code is just crazy. You've supported it before with people who killed innocent civilians so your reluctance to do so again is unfathomable.

[Sir Tokyo Sexwale]

Bombing Hyde Park etc did have a purpose. As f***ing horrible as they were, they realized that Thatcher couldn't give a f*** about the IRA bombing Newry, Belfast etc. So they took it to the mainland

[Tones]

Bombing Hyde Park etc did have a purpose. As f***ing horrible as they were, they realized that Thatcher couldn't give a f*** about the IRA bombing Newry, Belfast etc. So they took it to the mainland

Yeah. Evil acts. As macca says, Thatcher didn't care if they blew up Belfast. Think the ira had a belief that one bomb in London was worth 10 in Belfast.

 

But there's very few similarities between Isis and the ira. I don't see how you can negotiate with them, what compromise you could offer. Plus, unlike the ira, these attacks aren't sanctioned or even supported by Any organisation. Any loner can carry out an attack and claim it for Isis

Edited July 18, 2016 by t1971

[Tommok]

So what's to be done?

 

Was watching Ross Kemp with the Kurds and the Kurd commander said 'air support had helped a lot'

Yeah I watched that too.

 

Seems the Kurds are making decent headway against ISIS too and actually making in roads into establishing their own state.

 

Of course, Turkey aren't too keen on the the Kurds having their own state right on the Turkish border, so looks like trouble brewing there too.

[DPD1973]

I wonder if this guy on the train in Germany will also turn out to be an ISIS inspired terrorist?

[Tommok]

I accept that ISIS is a whole new ball game in terms of diplomacy, albeit a logical progression from Al Quaeda, but surely at least attempting some form of dialogue with them should be tried.

 

Bombing the hell out of various countries in retaliation for their (horrific) acts of aggression is simply playing into their hands in terms of galvanising a latent hatred of "The West"

 

Every time ISIS attack they are hoping the response will be swift and violent and we keep giving them what they want. A bomb in France is followed up with a stepping up of bombing in the middle east - tick follows tock and we're playing their game.

 

However fruitless it might be, another tactic needs to be tried.

Edited July 18, 2016 by TommoK

[Cobs]

I wonder if this guy on the train in Germany will also turn out to be an ISIS inspired terrorist?

A 17yr old Afghan refugee apparently

[Crazy Horse]

It'll be those bloody Lutheran radicals again

[Hassony]

I wonder if this guy on the train in Germany will also turn out to be an ISIS inspired terrorist?

Was the nice one inspired by isis?

[DPD1973]

Was the nice one inspired by isis?

 

unconfirmed no?

[muleskinner]

Was the nice one inspired by isis?

They have claimed he was.

[D.Boon]

There are no discussions they're interested in

There's no discussion we're interested in.

[Gilps]

I wonder if this guy on the train in Germany will also turn out to be an ISIS inspired terrorist?

Hand painted IS flag found in his room apparently

[Cobs]

Breaking news now that 3 people have been shot dead at a Leisure centre in Spalding, Lincs

 

dunno if it's terror related yet...

 

 

World's gone mad.

[Leo No.8]

Basically any nutter who happens to also be Muslim has a cause in which to go out in a blaze of glory and infamy. The Nice guy, Pulse nightclub - these people are all disaffected loner types, usually with some sort of criminal background (I was reading about how in Belgium a lot of the radicalisation actually goes on in jail). They don't even seem to be overly religious in the above two cases. It's not even ISIS directly making these things happen, just what they stand for giving loons a flag to fly under whilst they vent their rage at the world, probably after reading stuff on the Internet. Stopping their online propaganda is massively important.

[Gilps]

Breaking news now that 3 people have been shot dead at a Leisure centre in Spalding, Lincs

 

dunno if it's terror related yet...

 

 

World's gone mad.

 

Police saying there's no indication it's terror related.

[Sir Tokyo Sexwale]

Basically any nutter who happens to also be Muslim has a cause in which to go out in a blaze of glory and infamy. The Nice guy, Pulse nightclub - these people are all disaffected loner types, usually with some sort of criminal background (I was reading about how in Belgium a lot of the radicalisation actually goes on in jail). They don't even seem to be overly religious in the above two cases. It's not even ISIS directly making these things happen, just what they stand for giving loons a flag to fly under whilst they vent their rage at the world, probably after reading stuff on the Internet. Stopping their online propaganda is massively important.

 

you don't have to be Muslim

 

The Orlando guy was just a desperado. He had all sorts of conflicting views. He was just a f***ing nutter

[Stevie H]

Police saying there's no indication it's terror related.

 

great times when you find yourself hoping it was 'just' a crime of passion.