EU Referendum

[John am Rhein]

I don't like the Unite leader McCluskey for obvious reasons, but have to laugh at his warning that Johns*n might face a citizen's arrest if he goes to Scotland:

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-suspend-parliament-brexit-citizens-arrest-len-mccluskey-a9100761.html

[pipnasty]

 

I really hope that NZ focus on happiness over GDP pays off. That’s the way to go.

 

Yep - agreed

[John am Rhein]

No Treaty is permanent. Hence Lisbon introduces additional control and reaffirmed national competencies.

 

 

 

yes, of course nothing's truly permanent - even the clauses and amendments of the US Constitution, but it's fair to say that amending the governing treaties is a lot more difficult than passing legislation in the more typical sense

I’m not saying the EU hasn’t enabled neo-liberalism by creating greater markets and removing barriers. But I don’t think that is or was its intrinsic intent.

 

No certainly not - but it was pushed in that direction during the 80s and 90s, not least by Thatcher and Blair. It needs to be pushed in the opposite direction, preferably by Corbyn.

[Des]

Any chance you could make one?

 

The EU doesn’t have direct competence in those matters. Imagine the s***fit if they did.

 

Yeah I can. People have died, and not just a few, thousands, as a direct result of this government's policies. Therefore the UK's membership of the EU has had no effect on the "worst excesses" of Toryism.

[StevieC]

Yeah I can. People have died, and not just a few, thousands, as a direct result of this government's policies. Therefore the UK's membership of the EU has had no effect on the "worst excesses" of Toryism.

How do you know what they’d have done without it? Look what they’re planning to do after their cliff edge.

 

The EU has limited intra-national competence but it set baseline standards on certain rights that the Tory’s are desperate to rip up. It stands to reason without those standards things could have been worse. Which isn’t to say they weren’t s***. Even the UN report was blithely ignored.

[Des]

There's a f***ing fascist in charge in Hungary and the EU are doing nothing. People are drowning in the Med because of the EU. The EU is not an inherently egalitarian institution.

[StevieC]

There's a f***ing fascist in charge in Hungary and the EU are doing nothing. People are drowning in the Med because of the EU. The EU is not an inherently egalitarian institution.

If they interfered in Hungary - they’d be accused of overreach.

 

Agree the refugees created from the actions of certain member states hasn’t been well managed - but again, would the outcomes have been any different without the EU there?

[cymrococh]

I'm pretty certain "Because the undefined alternatives might be worse" has never been a persuasive argument.

[StevieC]

I'm pretty certain "Because the undefined alternatives might be worse" has never been a persuasive argument.

It follows the same logic as ‘they’re to blame for the excesses of others’ - there’s no evidential support for the premise.

[John am Rhein]

(more devil's advocate...)

 

Another thing I haven't liked about the EU is it's being used (willingly?) as a trojan horse for NATO to expand further and further to the east - first Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc. then Latvia, Estonia, Romania, etc. and then they were clearly trying the same trick in Ukraine before they were stopped.

 

It's a fortunate side effect of Trumpism that this has stopped - for the time being, at least.

[Gethin]

It's a bad argument because A) The British electorate hasn't had a chance to elect a socialist government for decades before 2017 when Labour secured it's largest swing since 1945 and the point is that you don't choose your politics on the basis of public opinion you choose your politics then try to win public opinion around

 

 

Much as most of us on here would like it to, Britain has no consistent record of embracing socialist politics.

 

With such an obvious media bias against it happening (and some within his own party working against it), the chances of Corbyn forming a government with a majority sufficient to enact beneficial change is really f***ing slim.

 

A UK under the Tories after a no deal Brexit really frightens me. The only upside to that is I'm pretty sure it'll lead to the break-up of the Union.

[Redray]

Seems that Cummings/Boris may have shafted themselves here.  Most of the legal scholars seemed to agree that for proroguing parliament, motive did not matter and therefore seemingly very difficult to challenge it legally.

 

However by insisting that it was just a dull, run of the mill act they have opened themselves up to criticism and possible challenges based on misleading parliament/the Queen. Trying to be too clever for their own good.

[StevieC]

Seems that Cummings/Boris may have shafted themselves here. Most of the legal scholars seemed to agree that for proroguing parliament, motive did not matter and therefore seemingly very difficult to challenge it legally.

 

However by insisting that it was just a dull, run of the mill act they have opened themselves up to criticism and possible challenges based on misleading parliament/the Queen. Trying to be too clever for their own good.

Cabinet members floating the idea in public to ‘get Brexit done’ for months in advance wasn’t a bright move.

 

The missing affidavit and evidence of pre-planning the move (whilst denying it) the hammer blow.

 

I suspect there’s more evidence to be submitted that Boris told Lizzie porkies.

[Redray]

Cabinet members floating the idea in public to ‘get Brexit done’ for months in advance wasn’t a bright move.

 

The missing affidavit and evidence of pre-planning the move (whilst denying it) the hammer blow.

 

I suspect there’s more evidence to be submitted that Boris told Lizzie porkies.

Got to love all this guilty pleasure/schadenfreude excitement..

Edited September 11, 2019 by Redray

[Swan Red]

Much as most of us on here would like it to, Britain has no consistent record of embracing socialist politics.

 

Britain has no record of embracing politics that haven't been on offer isn't really  shocker. The point is to sell that vision to an electorate and while the idea of a post Brexit Britain is grim to you that it is actually likely to make a difference is something it won't for many of those who've been on the sharp end of austerity these last years

[Kid Klopp]

I'm pretty certain "Because the undefined alternatives might be worse" has never been a persuasive argument.

There's some false equivalence here though. In what way did the EU cause the fascist in Hungary and waves of immigrants, or the handling of it reflect something specific to the EU? Are we to assume neither would have happened, or would have been handled better in the absence of the EU? Based on what?

[Swan Red]

There's some false equivalence here though. In what way did the EU cause the fascist in Hungary and waves of immigrants, or the handling of it reflect something specific to the EU? Are we to assume neither would have happened, or would have been handled better in the absence of the EU? Based on what?

 

Well it would have happened anyway is precisely the problem.

[StevieC]

Well it would have happened anyway is precisely the problem.

The accusation is it happened or the mitigation wasn’t good enough *because* of the EU.

 

That predicate doesn’t bear scrutiny.

 

Whether it would be better or worse is hypothetical - but doesn’t change the logic around the predicate.

[charlie clown]

If they interfered in Hungary - they’d be accused of overreach.

 

Agree the refugees created from the actions of certain member states hasn’t been well managed - but again, would the outcomes have been any different without the EU there?

 

They interfered in Italy and Greece.

[Gilps]

I suspect there’s more evidence to be submitted that Boris told Lizzie porkies.

Again, what of the reports in Private Eye that she was at least partially in on the plan?

The accusation is it happened or the mitigation wasn’t good enough *because* of the EU.

That predicate doesn’t bear scrutiny.

Whether it would be better or worse is hypothetical - but doesn’t change the logic around the predicate.

Well the politics of all member states handling the attempted arrival of immigrants from outside the EU is directly influenced by their obligations to internal freedom of movement.

[StevieC]

They interfered in Italy and Greece.

And were accused of over-reach and interference.

Again, what of the reports in Private Eye that she was at least partially in on the plan?

 

Well the politics of all member states handling the attempted arrival of immigrants from outside the EU is directly influenced by their obligations to internal freedom of movement.

Not seen the Private Eye stuff. What is it?

 

The Common European Asylum System coordinates nations. Whether it’s effective or enough is there for debate. Those issues arising *because* of the EU is a different question.

Edited September 11, 2019 by StevieC

[Gethin]

Britain has no record of embracing politics that haven't been on offer isn't really  shocker. The point is to sell that vision to an electorate and while the idea of a post Brexit Britain is grim to you that it is actually likely to make a difference is something it won't for many of those who've been on the sharp end of austerity these last years

 

 

I think you think I'm arguing against presenting those policies to the electorate. I'm not.

 

I'm saying that with British media the way it is and the UK having a tendency to elect centre right governments, it's going to be very hard to get those policies presented to the people who'd be likely to vote for a party that presents them. Add in that a decent chunk of Labour's current MPs don't particularly want those policies either and I just don't see a Corbyn government being elected with a majority that they'd need to enact meaningful change. I would love to see it happen though.

 

I see a Tory government outside the EU making things much worse for the people who've been worst hit by austerity. Not only will they be able to do what the f*** they want, there won't be any EU-led infrastructure investment in poorer areas of the country and it certainly won't be replaced by Westminster spending.

[Gilps]

And were accused of over-reach and interference.

Not seen the Private Eye stuff. What is it?

.

That she was in on discussions about the process of proroguing and how to make the process appear normal. It was specifically her idea to have the privy councillors come to her in Balmoral and not return to a London herself to avoid playing into a narrative of the nation being in crisis.

[Falconhoof]

That she was in on discussions about the process of proroguing and how to make the process appear normal. It was specifically her idea to have the privy councillors come to her in Balmoral and not return to a London herself to avoid playing into a narrative of the nation being in crisis.

That would be extraordinary.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/andrew-griffiths-sexts-messages-parliamentary-standards-watchdog-cleared/?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=ijp&fbclid=IwAR0nqsXSiV3YgTtFe9FrCiBGr8xqm2BVE2O5kJSxh0yT0jzD2s_LkECGlIw

 

Tory MP Andrew Griffiths who sent 2000 ‘sexts’ to female constituents in 21 days cleared of wrongdoing by watchdog

[Gilps]

That would be extraordinary.

A billionaire who is the living embodiment of the establishment being on board with a plan dreamed up by wealthy establishment figures? It’s unthinkable.